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To persuade others, it is important to transform oneself not only to their perspective, but their full being, feelings, relevant experiences, sense of place and even unsettlement, and thought process. That approach, with psychodrama (working out challenges with role playing, reverse role playing, and scene setting), is a big part of the Trial Lawyers College, which I attended for a full month, and which is featured in several of my Beat The Prosecution interviews. 

Anam Petit, with the Murray Osorio law firm, is the second former immigration judge to join me on my podcast, the first being my law school immigration clinic and class professor Paul Grussendorf. With Anam, I dig deeper into strengthening one's persuasion chops by seeing matters from the judge's perspective. 

Unlike most "views from the bench" programs I have attended, where the judges are usually restrained in giving tips to lawyers (for instance saying to be fully prepared and fully considerate of judges and opponents, rather than really letting their hair down),  Anam holds nothing back in sharing her two years of experience as an immigration judge (during the Biden and Trump administrations) and her perspective of the wide range of lawyering she experienced, including her frustration at the swath of lawyers whose work was subpar to the detriment of their clients, when her role limited her ability to help rectify the situation. 

Anam underlines the importance of getting one's persuasive point across succinctly, rather than through repetition or plodding. She talks about how she would assess the credibility she witnesses. Anam underlines how demanding was her full docket and about working through lunch and needing to be highly organized to keep up timely with her work. When lawyers and other litigants work with those demands, that can pay off for the persuader. 

Now back to private law practice, mainly representing individual non-United States citizens, Anam addresses dealing with the trauma of many clients -- as is often the case for criminal defense lawyers, as well as-- and the challenges of keeping a balance in one's life when individuals are relying tremendously on our delivering them great service, and in some instances hoping we will pull a rabbit out of our hats. 

Anam is frank about the need to overhaul the immigration judging system -- which heavily includes hearings where people risk deportation -- including to make immigration courts Constitutional Article III courts (like the federal District Courts and Circuit Courts) so that immigration judges do not feel their judicial independence threatened by risking being fired by the Justice Department -- that employs them, and perverts the process  by unabashedly characterizing such judges as "deportation judges" in their immigration judge hiring webpage  --for not pleasing the DOJ or presidential administration in general. 

In a predecessor interview with another interviewer, Anam addresses sticking to her oath at all times. The current administration terminated a slew of immigration judges appointed during Democratic administrations, and Anam was one of those so terminated after nearly two years. Notable is her lack of bitterness over that termination and the positive words she has to say about the people at the immigration courts who continue focusing on doing the right thing. 

Anam has been active with the public interest group Arrived (renamed from Asylum Works)  Donations can be made to that group at this link. 

This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text). 

If you like what you hear on our Beat the Prosecution podcast, please take a moment to post a review at our Apple podcasts page (with stars only, or else also with a comment) at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beat-the-prosecution/id1721413675