SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz of Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I am completely delighted to have our return guest here today. I always I think mispronounce her name. Her name is Tuptin Chodron. She is a Buddhist nun in uh in Oregon, and she's got a fascinating story.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Washington.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Oh, I Washington, thank you, near Oregon. Yes. She she has a fascinating story. What a delight I had. This wasn't like when a certain political leader said that someone was begging to do a self selfie with them. No one begged me to do anything. I was invited to have the children back on and talk about her book, for instance, that's called The Key of Compassion, Finding Meaning Where You Least Expect It. And this came out uh last year, and this is uh covers the focus of her uh one of the focuses of her Sravasti Abbey to uh be in touch with inmates. And you know, some of the look at this, some of this artwork. I mean, I can't even do this kind of artwork uh with being able to go to the art store and artwork and and uh stories from the inmates. So I'm gonna ask Venerable to introduce herself. And unlike last time, where I asked later on in the talk to do a sit, I do ask when she thinks it's best for us to also uh do a little short sit as well.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Yeah, I actually like doing the sit at the beginning so that we can uh set our motivation.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Wonderful. So I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Okay. So come back to your breath. Why am I here? Why are you listening? What is your what is your intention? Actually, the most important part of whatever we do in our lives. So whatever our attention is when we begin, let's enlarge it and think that we want to share together this afternoon to gain wisdom, to gain compassion, so that we can be of the most effective benefit to other living beings. So our intention is not to be famous, not to get rich. Uh our intention is to be able to benefit. So with that intention of compassion, then we can go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Thank you so much, Venerable. Please tell everybody the correct pronunciation of your name.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Oh, well, I don't pronounce it correctly myself. It's a Tibetan name, and my Tibetan accent is lousy, so I just say Tutan Chudron like everybody else, and the Tibetans go, Kataray, meaning what?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Um well we talked a lot about your um your biography on our last show. Uh, but for those who didn't see it, uh what is the name of your Abbey and what is your uh web address over there? And what got you and the other people at your Abbey interested in collaborating or working with inmates?

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Okay, so um I live at Srivasti Abbey. Srivasti is S-R-A-V-A-S-T-I and Abbey A-B-B-E-Y. And our web address is just sravastiabbey.org. It's simple. So and what got me interested, I received a letter from an inmate in 1998. He was asking for Buddhist material. I was uh with another Buddhist organization in Seattle at the time. I asked him how he got my uh, you know, connect uh contact, and he said he received letters, he wrote to 25 uh Buddhist temples or centers asking for Dharma material, and I was the only person who answered. But when he looked at the list of people who wrote to mine and the organization I was with at that time weren't on the list. So how I got his letter, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Yeah, but uh so I made the contact with him, and then of course, once you write to one person, he tells his friends, who tell their friends, and and that's how our prison project began. And I must say that uh the people I work with, they teach me more than I teach them.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Now um, Fleet Mole, who uh was a student of uh Choganchung Rinpoche and the Tibetan lineage, he is involved with uh helping inmates too. To what extent is there any overlap with what he's doing with inmates and what uh you and the people at the Abbey are doing?

SPEAKER_04 7:22

I think we do pretty much the same thing in terms of sending uh Buddhist resources and answering questions that they may have. Um, I don't know all the details of everything that Fleet does, but it's very good work, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Now that we're talking about Tibetan Buddhism, I'm gonna veer a little bit because it was only a few weeks ago that Robert Thurman uh passed away. He was uh, as always, brilliantly entertaining on my podcast last year. And I looked up to see what uh your connection was with him, and it wasn't too clear. I think you knew him. If you could just share a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Yeah, I I knew Bob. We had the same teachers. We're we both have very strong connections with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Um, and I had seen him at many different things. Uh, at one point, some years ago, he invited me to come and do a retreat at their Menla Retreat Center, and so I got to know him and Nina, his wife. Um, yeah, so we knew each other and ran in similar circles. Yeah, very really um very dedicated to the Buddhist teachings and very dedicated to the Tibetan cause and to his holiness Dalai Lama.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Bob would keep people on their toes and engaged when they were with him. For instance, when I asked Bob if he would do a sit, he said to me, You lead, John. So I left.

unknown 9:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Oh, okay.

unknown 9:04

Good.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

And the last one before we get to your book, uh, when the rabbis were meeting with the Dalai Lama in India, to what extent were you president? To what extent were you involved in organizing uh and and welcoming the rabbis?

SPEAKER_04 9:20

Okay. I didn't organize the trip, but uh those of us who were Jew boos, Jewish Buddhists living in Dharmsala, when we heard about it, uh some of us went. And uh it it was fascinating to meet with them. They had Orthodox, conservative, everybody um was there. And of course, you know, you get a bunch of Jews together and we talk and talk and talk. But the first thing, uh how the first event I met them at was Friday night, uh, you know, which is the beginning of Shabbat for the Jews. And uh the Jewish custom is you face Jerusalem when you welcome the Sabbath. And so they were standing, uh, where they were staying was a little bit on a hill. They were standing there looking uh from Dharmsala, India, then they look to the west, and uh, you know, when they have their arms around each other and singing and dancing, and you know, the the whole shebang and and uh and praying, and then they had dinner with the Tibetans, and some the Tibetans were saying, what were they doing? Do they worship the sun because they were facing west and the sun was setting? And Tibetans don't know anything about Judaism, so yeah, they we assured them that no, they are not sun worshipers. Um I meditated with some of the rabbis during their visit. That was really very, very nice. And uh they had uh they met with his holiness Dalai Lama. Um, us Jewus didn't go to that part of it, because they, you know, only a small number can go. Um, but uh his holiness gave them some very good advice because they were saying, oh, some of so many of our young Jewish kids are here in Dharmsala, um, you know, kind of uh hint, hint, we want them back. And the Dalai Lama said, well, you know, uh we don't try and convert anybody, which is really true. Uh but if you have elements in your tradition that uh, you know, you you don't reveal to everybody that aren't that not everybody can know, maybe it's time for you to enlarge that scope and give these people some of the more esoteric teachings.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

You know, then they wouldn't be coming to Darzala.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

That's right. Now getting back to the invitation from uh your Abbey to me. Um please tell about the book, The Key of Compassion. How did it c how did it come about? And um what types of um arm's length do you and the people the Abbey keep with the inmates? Because my understanding is that uh you you do have some sort of boundaries.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

Oh, of course, yeah. Um I mean, we always write, but it's very clear we don't send them money, we don't uh call their family, you know, and our relationship with them is is on based on the Buddha's teaching. And let me tell you, there is enough to discuss with the Buddha's teaching, they're the inmates' meditation practice, what they're learning about themselves by meditating, you know, uh, and knowing the Buddha's teachings. There is enough for really good dialogues and correspondences in our letters.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

This book, uh, you know, when I was reading this book, it's not all uh uplift uplifting every moment. I mean, it's because uh what you're talking about in there is uh this theme of that a large percentage of the inmates, at least those serving life sentences and long ones, have come from very underprivileged backgrounds, uh bad education, uh poverty, uh neglect. Um and but I'm sure it's not just monolithic like that, right? Are you also dealing with inmates who who had some advantages? You know, look at Fleet Mall, for instance. He it caught up with him. He did a 14-year prison sentence because it caught up with him that he was doing drug dealing in South America years before that.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

Yeah. So what what was your question exactly to me when you say catch up, do you mean somebody's uh behavior catching up and winding them up in prison?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

What I'm saying is that Fleet Mall is different from that, uh, from what I can tell, uh, from that large percentage of inmates who uh grew up in poverty, uh grew up uh abused. Now, Fleet apparently had a lot of advantages. What caught up with Fleet Mall was that when he was over in South America by his own admission, he was doing some uh drug uh export exportation that caught up with him by leading to a 14-year prison sentence, which to me might have been uh decades or even life if it was under the current sentencing structure. So he he skipped that bullet.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

Yeah, I that's what I was thinking when you said 14 years, because that he got off easy. Yeah. Oh my goodness, what they do to people now, really. And it does absolutely no good to throw somebody in prison for that long. They don't come out reformed. Um what you you know, when you were talking about the backgrounds of many of the people who are incarcerated, this is the number we always say the number of prisons, the expense of the prisons, the number of inmates. This is, you know, they all deserve it, but this is a problem because it costs so much. Actually, it's a societal problem that kids uh are brought up in communities where there's poverty, where their one parent or the other is a drug addict, another one may be in prison. And so where when they think about the future, what is their vision of what they can do in their lives? Yeah, the education um is not very good in the public schools there, all the budget cuts, healthcare is not good, budget cuts. But so what what vision do they grow up with? You know, who is successful, who makes money in that community? Well, drug dealers do. Yeah, it's very profitable.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Um for the short run.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Yeah, it's um yeah, but but you know, if society doesn't provide services and help families when the kids are little, then it's so obvious why they why so many of them wind up in prison, you know, and why the teen birth rate with the women is very high. So it it isn't because people are evil people or something is wrong with them. It's it's really our society, I think. Um, the way how the Buddha the book came about was I never intended to write a book on this, but as I started doing uh work and getting to know people and getting to know something about the prison system, wow, I mean, I really learned a lot and uh about the prison system and what goes on. But I also learned a lot about the people who are in prison and what it's like for them and what they deal with on a daily way, uh you know, on a daily uh case. But I think most people in America don't know anything about what it's like inside of a prison. They just have the view of lock them up and throw away the key. But they're human beings and they have a lot of potential. And uh so it's it's really a tragedy that they did whatever they did and that the prison system works the way it is and just locks them up. I've been learning more about restorative justice.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

And I really shot the Baliga on the uh on the program a few months ago, and you may know her. She's a she's a fan of the Dalai Lama, she's a leader in the uh restorative justice movement.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

Uh yeah, because I I some of the guys who I wrote to started, they were in that program and they wrote and they told me what happened, what they do, and I said, wow, you know, this is really good. But in the reading I've started to do about it, they always talk about the benefits that the victim gets from restorative justice.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:16

But the way I look at it is it should bring benefit to the offender as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Yeah, but they don't talk about it as something that should or does bring benefit to the offender. But the guys that uh this is how I learned about it, it was because people who in prison who did it told me, um, you know, it really influences them too, and uh in a very, very good way in terms of um owning their own motivations, being able to admit it even to themselves, what what they did, let alone to others, and um yeah, and having regret and wanting to take a different direction in their life. So this is a benefit, not for all the inmates, but from the ones that I met for sure that was happening, and so they started uh facilitating um some meetings with the other inmates before those inmates met other victims. Yeah, so they got involved in the program too.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

When I started uh visiting inmates, it was 1991, and I saw a very well-organized uh approach of a lot of Christian folks to visit inmates. Uh, there was a lot of good organization, I think, um uh by the Nation of Islam and other uh andor similar organizations. I really didn't become very familiar with uh Buddhist activity until later on. So uh to what extent are uh are people who are of uh from East Asian backgrounds reaching out uh to you and the people at the Abbey or mostly the uh the non-Asians who are reaching out, and what what motivates them to reach out for uh uh Buddhist teachings if they didn't grow up Buddhist versus to go to the the the Christian route, the uh the the Moslem route, for instance? Yeah, I could talk about the other religions. I don't I don't know of a lot of uh Hindus in jail, and there's a there's a small percentage of Jewish people like that.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

Jewish, yeah. It the most of the people who contact us are qu Caucasian, you know, we get a few African Americans and a few Asian Americans, yeah. But most are are Caucasian who grew up uh just you know, kind of in dare I say wasp, this was the term. I learned in college, white Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, they grew up like that. Why did they get interested in Buddhism? I think it's because either they talk to another inmate, probably that one, or perhaps they saw a Buddhist book in the library and they read it. Because many of the guys who write to me say, you know, oh, they read something in one of my books and then they write. But but then some others say, you know, so-and-so told me and suggested I write. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

So what drew me to Buddhism, I consider myself Jewish into Buddhism. And my teacher, I think is I probably showed it to you before the Odaimoku, that's by Junya Suda, who's a nippon nipponzanya hoji uh nichiren Buddhist nun, is non-attachment. And um to what what is the main uh interest level of these inmates? My understanding is that from from uh I haven't read the whole book, but looking through your book, and general understanding is there's a big theme with uh generosity, gratitude, compassion, presence, non-attachment is particularly big with me.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Uh-huh. Yeah, all of those are Buddhist themes. And uh so we work with the inmates regarding those, whatever, whatever they're attached to. But many of them are very angry because they got locked up and they didn't, you know, this is one of the problems I think with the standard justice system is the victims and the uh offenders, they're just sitting, you know, in the chair watching what other people do and make decisions about their lives. They don't have any say-so. Only at the end does the victim or the victim's family get to say something at sentencing and the offender get to say something. But the rest of the process, they aren't involved really in what goes on. And so this does not uh create a feeling of, oh, people are working for my benefit. It creates the feeling of they don't like me and they just want to lock me up. And that's often the the feeling, I think, from some of the guards, not all of them, but some of them definitely. Um and but you got to see the situation of the prison guards too, because who who, when they're a child, says, I want to grow up to be a prison guard, you know, nobody. So that's not like a you know, so you have the prison guards and the and and the inmates and um yeah, and then you you put a lot of rules on it, um, with no understanding, no um no guidance, you know. There are some programs, there's some sex offender programs, there's uh a program for um, you know, helping fathers, there's a program for what else.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Um drug AA.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

Yeah, AA, another one called Thinking for a Change. That one's, I think, kind of leaning towards a Buddhist view in the sense that in Buddhism we get people to really look at what are your motivations, what are your intentions, what are your thoughts, why are you doing this? And so those programs emphasize that same thing. And I think that appeals to a lot of guys because then they um, you know, instead of sitting there stewing and being angry, it gives them uh, you know, something. Well, what was my motivation when I did this? And what is my motivation today when I'm sitting in prison? And you know, getting them to look inside, and that's what the guys really need to do. And I I think that really helps them. What else, as the title in the book says, you know, the key to compassion, um, you know, finding it where you least expect it. When yeah, when you talk about compassion to people in prison, and you, you know, we talk about the Buddha nature that everybody has the potential to become fully awakened, every human being has value, and every being has the capacity to create compassion for others and to extend the field of their compassion very broadly. And the guys go, Wow, you mean after what I've done, I can generate compassion. Yes, I can expand it really, you know, because they've been put down ever, you know, before the crime and uh since the crime, and to say, wow, I have that potential, this is a game changer, you know, because then they start to see that their lives have value, and that as human, as human beings, they have value.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

I'm reminded of many things, including there was the man who said to Tik Nathan that he'll uh never never be able to stop eating himself up that during the Vietnam War when it was a U.S. soldier, he booby trapped a sandwich, a child ate it and was just writhing in extreme pain and torture, and then died. And Tik Not Han said, You're still alive, you can now help children.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

And how about Claude? You you've probably met Claude Anshin Thomas at some point, uh, who was a well he he was um he doesn't like giving the names of his teachers, but let's just say he's a zodo Sotozen Buddhist, mendicant monk, and by his own admission, I think he killed at least a hundred people during the Vietnam War. I think he uh joined 18 or 19, and when he was uh pickling himself in drugs, sex, and alcohol after uh being a soldier, he somehow found out about two things. One was a program to uh solve his drug problem, which which amazingly worked the first time, and also about a program with uh with uh Tiknad Han. And uh he he lives so much with the uh with the nightmares of the war, even though he's a monk now. Uh so he's both helping people, but you know, it can be it can be as little bit as as little as the phone ringing for him to uh go into defensive mode and and be reminded from when he was under attack.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

Yeah. Yeah, those things that's why PTSD is a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

PTSD.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

So some of my clients and potential future clients are listening, and these are people who might be facing as little as a few hours in the jail while waiting to be released after their uh uh arrest. They might be facing just a few days in jail if convicted. They might be facing years in jail. Uh, do you have any thoughts for them beyond what what's in your book, or is it just all in the book about things like generosity, gratitude, compassion, non-attachment?

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Uh I say write to us and we'll send you more books. And if you have questions and you want and you need to process some of what you yourself have done, you know, we're here to to dialogue with you.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

What can I do to help out my clients? Because my view is not to proselytize to anyone, and I'm interested in proselytizing, but for my clients who want to learn about meditation or mindfulness, I can share that as little as simple as, for instance, what John Cabot Zinn teaches in mindfulness for beginners, condense down to two sentences. Start by focusing on your breath, and you can have mindful moments even when you're walking from your chair over to the water fountain.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Yeah. Um, yeah, you know, so you you can start them off on that. Um, but yeah, they can learn some of them just want to yeah, to learn basic meditation. Mindfulness is kind of the craze right now. That can be beneficial to people. But for people who really want to go deeper into a spiritual practice, people who want to look beyond this life and beyond what um what they can do in this life, then those people would uh, you know, a spiritual tradition would be very good for them. Yeah. And so many of the people we write to, you know, they're interested in that. Or they may start out, yeah, just wondering what what Buddhism is.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

I think they're kind of relieved that we don't um kind of point the finger and say you're evil and you're going to hell. Uh, you know, Buddhism does not threaten people at all. Yeah, and I think that opens the door because my guess is a lot of the people who were imprisoned, you know, when they were growing up as kids, had very harsh discipline, you know, which didn't, you know, either harsh discipline or they were running free.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Your book does not seem to pull any punches about the realities of the jail. It includes talking about people who do get raped in prison and and and other awful things. Uh and so let's say if an inmate writes to you and and says that they're being raped in prison or being otherwise physically abused, what is your response to them?

SPEAKER_04 32:56

I say report it, you know, report it so that the other person will can stop. Yeah. And then I kind of ask them, you know, what I wait for them to tell me more about it. I, you know, that's a uh rape is a very, very sensitive topic. So I don't ask too many questions to start with until I get to know somebody. But um, yeah, they should definitely report it.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

To what extent are you and the other people, the Abbey, mostly communicating with the inmates from afar versus visiting them in person?

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Um, I would say mostly from afar, but we also do prison visits. Um in fact, today is what day? Thursday. Okay, Tuesdays. Um one monk and one nun go to a prison that's about an hour and 45 minutes away. And so they're there for the for the day. And um yeah, and that group's been going for a few years now, and it's going very, very well. The the chaplain is for it, and even the previous chaplain has contacted us, even the previous chaplain is now doing hospice work in a hospital, um, you know, so so those those connections went uh went very well. And yeah. What was the the first part of your question again?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Well, I think you answered it. Yeah, most of it's from afar, a distance. Yes, there are personal visits. So when there are these personal visits, to what extent is it one-on-one versus in a group? Because I think the group setting is so important.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

Yeah, I've done both. Yeah. Sometimes it's because one person has been writing to me when I, you know, because I travel a bit. So when I'm in the area where they are, I'll go to the prison and visit them. So if so if it's just a correspondence with one person, then it's, you know, sometimes in the visit room, visiting room, sometimes there's plexiglass and you're talking to somebody on a telephone. Um, but then other times it is with a group. And you know, some prisons have Buddhist groups, so people can check about that. And uh, and I'll go talk to the Buddhist group. What's really interesting is whenever people find out that you know I go in prison, the first thing this is, aren't you afraid? And it's like, no.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Good.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

No, um, because they are so hungry to learn other things, they are so thankful when somebody comes to visit. Yes, you know, I don't fear for my own safety at all.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Same with me.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

To what extent is it possible for the um for the Buddhist groups and other um, I don't know what we're gonna call it, faith groups, religious groups, to help replace a temptation by some people to join a prison gang and to do just other things that are just totally counterproductive, whether it be to do drug running inside the prison or anything else.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Yeah, no, it helps a lot. I mean, I'll the people who write to me, several of them will say, you know, if they're in PC protective custody, it's because they were in a gang and especially like a white racist gang or a Mexican gang or something, and they've decided to quit. And when you quit a gang, you're putting your own life in danger. So they're in protective custody, yeah, and uh, you know, they're very thankful that some other people are interested in them and know they're alive, and and they, you know, and they really um benefit from the Dharma because they've taken that step before they've contacted me. Yes, yeah. And I imagine that it uh, I mean, people who are in gangs, how much they would write to to a Buddhist nun, I don't know. Uh yeah, you might know have a better idea than me. They're more interested in probably contacting you and trying to get out.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Well, there you go. So there's a book you might be familiar with. I forget the name of the author. Authors called We're All Doing Time. About uh they don't really, maybe when they wrote it, they didn't realize how uh how stark the uh experience in jail can be. Where he talks about, well, you know, in some ways, uh a spiritual practitioner can look at the uh at a prison as an ashram where the prison takes care of your external needs, you take of your internal needs. Well, if you think three hots and a cot is enough, especially where it might be crappy breakfast and and bed bugs all over the mattress, uh I think it's closer for starters, even with a client of mine who had to be in jail for I think a maybe a four-day mandatory minimum for uh an elevated blood alcohol level conviction for DWI. I said, So what was it like there at the Fairfax Jail, which is right across the street from me? And Fairfax is one of the wealthiest counties in the nation. He said, Well, it was like a symphony of flatists. He he used the other F-word for Flatist, speaking around all those inmates. And I thought to myself, that's a little more realistic for starters.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Yeah, yeah. It's um, yeah, it's it's tough. It's tough in there.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

And that's why Fleet Mall is an inspiration, because how many Dharma teachers are there who's been through it? And in his book, uh Dharma in Hell, he talks about well, if he really wanted to get uh a good a good amount of daily meditation, often he'd have to go into the broom closet, close the door, and sweat like a pig while he was doing the his meditation.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the reasons they don't have so many formerly incarcerated people going into help in the prisons is because the prisons won't let them. I just recent I just recently talked to somebody who I first met when he was in prison, and he's been out for some time, and he really wants to go to the prison, you know, where our other friends uh go from the Abbey, and uh and he's applied there many times. They say no because you have a record.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

It's yes, it's shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak, because these people can do a lot, they know the scene, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

And getting beyond just the religion, uh, I was just floored to know that uh Gene Harris, who was convicted, I think, of manslaughter, some sort of homicide for killing her ex-boyfriend, uh, the Scarsdale Diet Doctor, and uh Bill Cosby until he was released from prison, they actually, in a very considered effort, helped the other inmates. Gene, uh Gene Harris, who had run the uh the Madeira uh All-Girls Private School uh here in uh Northern Virginia, she was teaching inmates. She may even have even set up a little school. Uh Bill Cosby was doing some sort of mentoring or teaching. What a counterpoint that is, even though it's uh uh fictitious, there's that great movie Down by Law by Jim Dramush. And I don't know if you've ever seen it, and there's this scene where there are these three inmates together, and one of them has played with Roberto Benini, who's always hilarious. Then, of course, there's Tom Waits, who's also the musician, and then there was uh the last name is Lori, I think, John Laurie. And so one of the in one of the inmates, each day he's he's scratching a line on the wall to count another day. And this is just making it excruciating for his other inmate, uh uh you know, cellmate that the time's going so slowly, and the the inmate who's going crazy about it, he he threatens me, he says, You do that one more time, and I'm gonna slug you. And what a counterpoint, even though it's fictitious, probably true, about going nuts about how slow times time seems to be marching. And then you have Gene Harris, who grew up in privilege, uh, and uh Bill Cosby, who found his way at least to economic financial privilege, finding ways just to help other inmates and not uh dwelling on the passage of each day.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

Well, that's slowly yeah, but this is the difference between the people I described at the beginning who grew up in poverty and dysfunctional families and poor education, and these two people who had an upbringing with a lot more resources and a more solid family. That's really the difference, yeah. At least the obvious one when you tell me the you know, these two kind of things. Yeah, because like I said, the the people who grew up in in uh the the poor neighborhoods of dysfunctional families, like I said, they don't have a vision of what they can can do, what they can contribute. There's no vision of what can I do for society, what can I do for others, how can I give. And um, and they need to to know that they have that capability of doing that. And I think Dharma in some instances can bring that to people. There's one guy that I've been writing to for oh many years now, and he went back to school. He's a Buddhist, but there was some um, I think it was Baptist University, uh, and he could enroll in that. He got a degree from the Baptist University. He's a field minister in in the prison. Um, but you know, when he told me his background, my goodness, it was horrific. And yet he's had that kind of help and has that confidence now. And he's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

And in at least one of the uh sections of the key of compassion, I think it was there was one inmate where it was maybe suggested by you or uh someone else who you you deal with and work with the inmates, uh, where we suggest to him look, here's someone else in need. Can you maybe share something with them? Because who better for them to uh uh get support from than someone else who's been through uh some horrific uh history or incarceration?

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Yep, yep. And to the guy I was talking about, the some of Times the mental health people in uh in his prisons ask him to go and visit different inmates and talk to them, yeah, because he has that ability now. And uh yeah, with him, every letter talks something about compassion and how he really is trying to use compassion and patience and fortitude to uh get through the day and you know do what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

So am I correct? And the the key of compassion is one of the uh one of the items that your abbey is uh sharing with the inmates.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

Yeah, yeah. And like I said, it has a remarkable um effect on them. I mean, you can't really uh know Tibetan Buddhism unless you, or at least you know the tradition of the Dalai Lama, unless you hear teachings on compassion. You know, this is people sometimes say, what is the uh, you know, if you could say this the what Buddhism is in a few words, it's help people as much as you can, and if you can't do that, at least don't help them, don't harm them.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

Okay, don't harm them.

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Yeah, at least you know help them as much as you can, and at least don't harm. And that's the essence of Buddha's Buddhism. And it's it's also uh things that you flaw find in most other religions, you know, in one way or another. And so if people are exposed to that and they're given uh just the idea that I can become like that. Yes, I'm sitting in the can right now in prison, but yeah, I can help the people here, you know, and when I get out, maybe I can help them. And for the lifers, the lifers told me that they're the ones, I yeah, that sometimes practice the best because they tell me that they know they're the only way they're getting out is over there with their dead body.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

So so they know that they have to build a life for themselves in prison. They're not gonna sit there and moan and groan and visualize getting out and going back on the streets. They're guys who, you know, really they try and make a life for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

To what extent are you seeing any inmates who are um following the teachings uh that you share with them uh making uh being inmates a less unpleasant place as far as conflicts with other inmates or avoiding those conflicts and conflicts with the guards?

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Yes, definitely. There's a couple of the excerpts in the book that talk about that. Yeah, you know, they really use the Buddhist teachings, the Dharma, um, to remedy conflicts or to avoid them, or at least to know sometimes if something's going on in the day room and there's a big hullabaloo, they know I'm not going there, I'm not gonna get involved. Yeah, but even when they're going, they're out on the yard, you know, they choose their friends differently. And uh yeah, they often set a good model for other people.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Now, of course, even for people who have not been in prison or jails, and even for people who have been released, plenty of them, if not all of them, all of us perhaps have our own types of prisons and jails.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Oh, yeah. Yes, you don't need an external prison to be miserable. Our own mind imprisons itself and makes us miserable. We can see that very clearly in our lives, you know. Uh one example I like to give. People don't often enjoy it, but it's true, is because we say, you know, this made me so mad. This person makes me mad. Look what they do. It made me mad. As if, you know, what is the cause of my anger? Them.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

External.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

External, exactly. And what we try and get across to them is no, that may be a cooperative condition, but we have the seed of anger inside of us. We have our buttons, the things we're very sensitive to. And in prison, your reputation is a real button. If you, if somebody gives you the slightest bit of disrespect, you know, you know, um, they get angry, or or a little bit of disrespect is perceived as a threat. Um, and so we we get them to see, wait a minute, you know, that person doesn't make you angry. It's not like anger is a virus, and as soon as they said something on the sound waves, there's the virus of anger, and it goes in your ear and wham, you're angry. You know, that's not what makes us angry. We have to look at what we're sensitive to. What are our best?

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Now, to what extent are the people showing interest in the Buddhism in prison people who are in their 20s? Because what I say to my clients who are worried about whether they're going to be assaulted in jail if they're 40 years old or over, I say, your grandpa, don't expect to be assaulted in jail. And if anyone assaults you, someone else might beat them up for bothering grandpa. But to what extent are the people in the 20s showing interest in the in the Buddhist uh teachings?

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Uh uh let's see. Well, I don't know how many people in their 20s are getting, you know, that would be the time when they enter prison. I just had a guy write to me, he's in his early 30s.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Yeah. So uh, yeah, I, you know, I think the people who go in and they have short sentences, you know, short meaning under 15 years, uh, you know, they from what the guys tell me, though they're kind of like, I'm just passing time and the, you know, that they're all oppressing me here. I hate prison, I hate the guards, I hate everything, you know, I'm in prison because somebody else devil crossed me. Um, you know, but the older ones try and and make a life for themselves.

unknown 51:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:02

Which is, yes, it's really noteworthy. And some of the guys, when they get out, a few of them, um, you know, stay in touch. Most of them, when they get out, they're, you know, they're back with their families and friends, and I don't hear from them again. But I know that what what we talked about in the letters influence them and help them. So if they don't stay in touch, that's their business. But a few of them do. And so um actually, just the last couple of weeks, one man uh wrote to me and he said, I've been incarcerated, I was incarcerated. Um, I'm out now, but I want to do something and give back. And so I said, Well, how about uh writing something for guys who are in prison and who are going for parole and who are preparing for release? How about if you write something um giving advice for that? And then I linked him up with another guy who was imprisoned who comes to the Abbey and they're gonna work on this together, and then we're gonna make it into a booklet and you know, send it out.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

Well, helping. So, how can people help with uh your Abbey's efforts here with the inmates? I would imagine includes financial, but to what extent can they be uh helping out with their time? I mean, you've already told about how in how inmates can help with their time and ex-inmates.

SPEAKER_04 52:41

Um, how people who aren't in prison can help our prison project.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Right. Well, let's start with the easy one financials. So financials for donating, do they just go to uh sravastiabbey.com and and look for the donation button?

SPEAKER_04 52:58

Yeah, it's sravastiabbey.org.org. Yeah, and yeah, and look at the donation button and then write in it uh for prison work. And that would be really useful because there's a program now called Endovo, um, where you can put materials on the line online that different prisons allow their inmates to access. We looked into that, and the you know, it's like five thousand dollars to put things online, and it's like, wait a minute. So, you know, helping in that way to to fund that would be good. Um, people, what else? What else can they do to help? Yeah. Um, yeah, if people want to write to inmates, they should write and let us know, tell us something about their background, perhaps come to the Abbey because we so we can get to know them, and then, you know, maybe we can uh set up a pen pal kind of thing if they want to do. Or what they should do is um, if they're already Buddhist, you know, go to a prison nearby and volunteer to um lead a Buddhist group.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Excellent. Weren't you uh didn't you once have an experience where you were were interacting with a prison chaplain uh and they and they were trying to uh bring into the Christian fold?

SPEAKER_04 54:27

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

That was you.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Yeah, that was me. What was tape? That was in Missouri, yeah, only in the south, you know. Yeah, he gave me this whole thing telling me about Jesus, and it's like, I'm excuse me, I'm here to visit the Buddhist group.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

I I certainly don't want to be shortchanging the meditation that has done so much for me, even though my main uh mindfulness daily practice is Tai Chi Chuan, which is moving meditation, when I'm doing the sitting meditation, I can go into some of the deepest states of meditation. So, what I want to ask you, venerable, is is there any trick to going to deep states of meditation or is it just by the practice?

SPEAKER_04 55:13

It's just by the practice. Yeah. If there were a secret that, you know, uh if science finally, you know, developed the uh the pill of deep meditation, okay, then you could get something from outside. But it's something we it's like eating, sleeping, going to the bathroom. We have to do it ourselves. We can't, there's nothing, nobody else can do it for us.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

So does that mean that it's not necessary? I'm not gonna name their name, but it's not, does that mean it's not necessary to uh pay over a thousand dollars or whatever is it's that organization's been around for decades, where you pay it for your own mantra, for instance?

SPEAKER_04 55:56

Oh god, no, no, we don't do anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

So is it any more than what I do, which is just to sit down quietly, and if my mind wanders, bring myself back to my breath, and just uh think in terms of that time is limitless and uh and and uh and space is limitless and to be limitless with the time and the space?

SPEAKER_04 56:22

Uh there's many different types of meditation. So you describe something that is more breathing meditation to calm the mind to gain uh what we call stabilization. But there's another kind of meditation, which I really like and I find is very helpful for the guys. It's called analytic or checking meditation, where you take a teaching that the Buddha gave or that your teacher gave, you have certain um points, the major points that were explained in the teaching. And then when you sit, you know, you calm your mind first, and then you go through each point one by one, thinking about it, really trying to get what it really means, and then applying it to our own life. Yes, and that is, you know, uh that's very, very important because it's not just about calming, it's really Buddhist practice is really about shifting how we look at the world. Because right now, our view of the world is me, I, my, and mine, isn't it? Everything in the world revolves around me, I, my, and mine. And it's you have to do these kind of analytic meditations to uh to see, well, wait a minute, why? We're all living beings who want happiness and not suffering. Why am I just thinking about myself? You know, we're all equal in wanting happiness and not suffering, you know. So I need to enlarge my perspective, and then that brings a lot of change, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Excellent, and of course, uh just like what do they used to say? You don't have to be Jewish to enjoy Levy's Jewish rye, you don't have to be Buddhist uh to be doing meditation. Meditation, for instance, so many of the lessons in the key of compassion uh can be are universal, right?

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Well, I am delighted that we met the second time and we've just gone into the 630 mark that I said. So, what I would like to do is to ask you, venerable, to say anything to the audience that you haven't already said that you want to say or anything you want to emphasize, and please remind everyone of your uh website. And I do recommend everyone who has uh the desire to donate, to donate.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

Good. Okay, so the thing I'd like uh let me just repeat um one small prayer that we do. Okay. May all sentient beings have happiness and its causes. May all sentient beings be free of suffering and its causes. May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrowless bliss. May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attachment, and anger. And so let's rejoice at what we did together, thinking and discussing and learning, and hopefully opening our hearts as well as growing our wisdom and dedicating it in the same way that we motivated at the beginning, that may uh the goodness that we created this afternoon uh at the end of the day um ripen in the freedom from samsara of each and every sentient being.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:45

Thank you, John.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

This has been helpful, I think, to so many people, including myself, everybody you've heard from uh Tupton Children. This is one of her latest books, The Key of Compassion. I recommend that you get it and uh get in the hands of inmates as well. This is John Katz. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer here in Northern Virginia. The name of this show is Beat the Prosecution, even though Venerable suggested before that I change it because there is no other way. Thank you so much, and please stand by.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.