SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz, the Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer here in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I am absolutely delighted to have our current today's debt guest, Miyoko Schinner. Mioko Schinner, she'll introduce herself. You may have seen uh the product that she used to uh uh whose company she used to lead, Miyoko's Creamery, but there's so much more about that. I found out about her, I guess, through that uh uh product line, and we met at the uh vegan um the vegan conference around three years ago, and she's got a cookbook and she does Epicure and Travel, and I think she's even teaching now at um at a business school, Berkeley.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yeah, UC Berkeley's Haw School of Business, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Well, there well, now that you've started talking, please introduce yourself, Miyoko.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Oh gosh, self-introduction, that's hard. Um, you know, I'm a long time uh vegan, entrepreneur, activist. Um, started several companies, um, food companies, um, trying to add my uh my version of plant-based foods that would hopefully inspire people to adopt a diet uh that is based on compassion and sustainability and respect for humans as well. Um, I'm also the author of seven cookbooks. Um I'm also the founder of a farmed and animal sanctuary here in California called Rancho Compacion, which also has a very, very uh fast-growing youth education program. Um, so I have my hand in a lot of pots, as they say. Um, but you know, everything has always been centered around, um, I guess you know, has sort of an activist bent to it. Everything is always centered around how can we make lifestyle change that can be meaningful for people, planet, and animals.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Excellent. So some people may be saying, well, what is the overlap between Miyoko Shinner and Beat the Prosecution? Well, those who watch.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

I'm wondering the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

I told you before we got on, but I'll tell you more. Uh, this criminal defense work is about uh winning despite the naysayers. There are so many of them in so many ways. Uh the stamina, the fighting the hurdles. Miyoko has had hurdles. We're going to talk about her uh thrills of victory and agonies of defeat, but I hope that the thrills of victory are bigger. And on top of that, I do eat vegan, uh, strictly vegan for over 15 years, strictly vegetarian uh since uh 1988, and it is uh ethically based. And uh and that I think that does tie in with why I do criminal defense, is because uh, you know, it was it was a small uh order, uh a small goal I had when I went to law school. I wanted to save the world. Uh I narrowed that down to say I'll save my corner of the world, and then I narrowed it down a little more to say I'll take as much butt as I can for each of my clients to get as great results as I can. With that, so Miyoko, uh, what made you decide to have a vegan lifestyle? And it's one thing to do that, but it's another thing. What made you decide for your career to be involved with veganism? Because for instance, let's say I go into a vegan restaurant, I say to myself, well, I understand it's hard enough for a vegan restaurant to survive, but then you have necessarily it's hard enough to have a restaurant survive, but then when it's going to be vegetarian or vegan, perhaps all the harder. Uh, what do you say about that?

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Well, you know, I think it there is some overlap between what you do and I do, because I think both of us are operating from a place of conviction and righteousness, a sense, not self-righteousness, but of doing the right thing. And you're doing the right thing for your clients, you believe, you know. Um and I believe that I am doing the right thing in terms of the world of food. Uh, the world of food is not as simple as people think. It's not uh oftentimes people think food is simply a personal choice and you just go out and eat whatever you feel like without really thinking about how we actually have been deprived of the freedom of choice in food, because we grow up eating a certain diet that is our we're already, there's we've already been indoctrinated into eating a certain type of diet because of the industry and corporations, because they want us to eat a certain way. You know, if you think about the fact that today 70 to 80 percent of what the average American eats comes from one of ten multinational corporations, you already know you aren't free to choose. You're free to choose from what the corporations tell you you can eat. But if you're trying to truly liberate yourself and understand what does it mean for food to be a basic human right? What does it mean to have equal access to food and the right kind of food that is sustainable for people, planet, and animals, then we really need to look at the food system in a much broader way. And it really does come down to uh the issues around justice and doing the right thing. Um, so in that way, you know, I feel that I've always been a champion or of what true liberation means in the food system as a human being. And I can tell you that the older I've gotten, the more I've been in the food system and in the food industry, I've understood more and more about how our current food system uh has been designed. Um and if, you know, because I travel and I see how the food systems are in other parts of the world, I see our role historically and what we have done in the United States to create a food system that keeps us um addicted to certain foods that aren't good for us, uh, that is polluting the planet, that's harming animals, um, and it's all by design. Um and I see how it's uh such a contrast to other food systems in other parts of the world. I also see the impacts of what we are doing. Um it's it's sort of a form of colonialism of how we get other countries to adopt this very uh unhealthy Western diet as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yes, speaking of the food systems, I've met you once or twice. And the last time I saw you, uh I you posted on your LinkedIn page that you were at that uh vegan conference in Alexandria, Virginia, around fall of 2022. And I said, Oh, I finished court early, let me go there. Oh, yeah, that's where I met you. And who's one of the first people I saw? You were right there in uh the lobby area. And you you may have uh, when you were still with Miyoko's creamery, you may have been there at one of the uh uh vegan festivals in DC, uh presenting your your products. So I'll tell you how I became uh uh started the vegetarian then vegan lifestyle. I can't call myself vegan because I'm still transitioning away from the wool. I shame on me. Uh, and then I want to hear from you. So uh I was very involved with human rights work, for instance, with Amnesty International in college. And by the time I graduated from college, I said to myself, how can I be working for the human rights of these uh human mammals, but eating uh non-human mammals? So I went up and down the food chain for three years, no red meat, and then no chicken. And then I was gonna go get some uh shrimp with marinara uh over pasta in Little Italy in Baltimore one day, three years later. But I said to myself, I can't do that. I just saw those cute fishes at the aquarium. Now, whether it's okay to have uh captive fish or not, that's another question. So stop right there. And then the vegan lifestyle was interesting. It was that I uh had a rather large tummy back in 2002, and I heard about the uh 2001, I heard about the raw foods lifestyle from uh Victoria Butanko and her family. And I tried it out eating 99% raw for like three and a half years. I was hungry all the time, but I certainly lost weight, and that was all vegan. And so when I started to cook food again, I said, why am I gonna eat eggs after they chop up all those uh male chickens uh they can't produce eggs after they're born? And why am I gonna drink milk uh with the captive cows and uh them being slaughtered after they stopped giving milk? And also, right, the only way they the only way they can produce cows, I understand, is to uh is to have children. So I was taking milk away from their children. So what made you go to the vegan lifestyle?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Uh very, very similar things. I had been a vegetarian since I was 12 years old when I made that connection uh between a living creature and what I was eating. And then in my mid-20s, I started learning about the dairy industry. I always thought that dairy was uh, you know, from happy cows. They tell you that. You know, I even believed the myth that you couldn't give milk unless you were a happy cow. Uh and you hear this stuff and you just sort of believe it, you know, because you're raised to believe certain things. And that's what I mean, is that we don't have full information about the food system. Uh, we're just indoctrinated into a certain food system, and and we just, you know, think that's what everybody eats. Um, but when I started, when I I think I read an article about the dairy industry and what happens to uh female cows and their babies being taken away and how they're tied up to machines twice a day, um, and then they actually go to slaughter after a few years anyway. I realized that milk equaled meat. It was the same thing. Um, so I just decided, okay, you know, I can't justify drinking milk. Um, and then as I learned about the, I think eggs might have been the last thing I gave up. I just figured, oh, they just lay eggs anyway. And then I started learning about the egg industry. Um, you know, and so it it it wasn't like overnight, you know, I don't have a veganiversary like a lot of people. Mine was more of a slow transition, but it was still all over 40 years ago that I've been eating this way.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

But then you took the plunge at some point to uh uh be in the business of uh of vegan food. How did that come about and what was that path from there?

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Well, the path was actually the so when I decided to go vegan, I realized, oh my God, I love certain foods. Um, I love, you know, rich Italian, French style, I loved heavy cream and butter, you know. If it didn't have heavy cream, butter, or cheese in it, as far as I was was concerned, it wasn't worth eating. And so I had to figure out how do I make these things. So I actually literally started, you know, exploring the culinary arts more deeply. And I started hosting these 12 course dinner parties every Friday night. Um, and that is really it just from me exploring things. And I started a little bakery. I was living in Japan, uh, and then I moved to back to the United States and started a bakery here, and then a restaurant, and then I started an alt meat company, and it was just one thing kind of leading to another, but it was all with this idea that I needed to convince the rest of the world that you could have your cake and enjoy not only eat it, but enjoy it too, even if it was vegan. Um, and that was really it. I've always been, I don't know, an ambassador of good food, let's um, you know, or a um a missionary of the vegan diet through a delicious and bountiful table. Uh, and I've uh taken the approach of inviting people to my table and breaking bread with them and sharing delicious food. I've never been the kind of activist that, you know, barks at people or that protests, you know, throwing blood on people, fake blood. I mean, I've never been that kind of activist. I've always been the kind of activist that invites people to share a wonderful meal. And I find that allows hearts to open up. You open up someone's stomach, then their hearts open up, and then you can have this conversation, and then their minds open up. And a little at a time, I plant seeds.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

That is so optimistic. Okay, so but I see two types of naysaying you probably face. I don't know how you dealt with it. The first naysaying is what all us vegans deal with. They're, you know, people who talk about all I was doing was eating tofu tofuki uh at the uh Thanksgiving table. I wasn't saying to anything to anybody about eating their giblet gravy or or a real turkey, but they all got on my case because they felt felt threatened uh that I was just eating it, that I might get on their case. So like almost like preemptive strikes. And the other one is uh, you know, people that were naysayers to me, you know, how do you think you're gonna uh be profitable doing uh uh doing criminal defense when so many criminal defendants get court-appointed laws, etc., etc. So, you know, I look at both and you know, any naysayers is they can nail long and I'll just stay on my path, and that's what works for me. Was it as easy as that for you?

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Well, you know what? It was in some ways, because um I it since since uh I was since I've gone vegan, since I went vegan over 40 years ago, I have always been the one to host Thanksgiving. So my family, my friends, I always invited them. And if you can cook better than anybody else, nobody complains that there is no meat on the table. Wow. So I have always provided the most amazing Thanksgiving meal, and people come and it's just, oh my God, this is so delicious. And no one has ever complained that there wasn't a bird on the table. Um, and that's the approach I've always taken is just be a better cook than everybody else, and no one will complain because the food is so delicious. And the thing that I've always heard, you know, I don't hear it as much anymore because I feel like everyone I know is I've converted to veganism for the most part. But in the early days, people would say to me, if I could eat like this every day, I'd go vegan. And I would hear that all the time. There you go. I mean, and that's really that, you know, I think people know what the right thing is, but it's so hard to make that decision when you're, you know, it's not just an going vegan is not an intellectual decision. You may realize that saving animals actually saves the planet because it saves greenhouse gases and land use and uh ecosystem destruction and all of this stuff. You may realize that. You may have read that, you may have read, you know, the the best way to save the planet is to go on a vegan diet. You may have read all that and understand it, but to actually make that change in your daily life is difficult because it means you have to do something different three times a day. And for people, food is an integral part of our culture and our cultural identity, our um our sense of belonging to a certain community, and so much more. And to be able to change that takes a lot of real effort. Um, and so um, you know, it's you just have to make that part you know easier for people. You have to show people, inspire them with what's possible.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

You mentioned Japan, which is one of my uh two favorite overseas countries. My wife's from Korea, so we'll plug that too. I love Korea. Uh now I know there are uh vegetarian and vegan possibilities there, but challenges too. So, to how how many years did you live in Japan total? And to what extent is vegetarianism and veganism really popular there?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Well, I was born in Japan um and then uh and lived there as a child, and then I moved back in after college. So um, you know, a total probably uh just slightly less than two decades, but um Japan, unbeknownst to a lot of people, had a 1200-year history of veganism by royal decree uh following Buddhist precepts. And it was only in 1874 that the meat-eating ban was lifted. So it isn't that the entire country was vegan, but you were supposed to be eating a plant-based diet. In fact, the shoguns were so adamant about it that they kept sending out these edicts. People weren't listening to them. Apparently, this edict of uh not eating animal foods went out something like 66 times, and you know, because they were trying to veganize the entire country. So a lot of people, generally speaking, ate predominantly a plant-based diet, not 100%, but it was predominantly a plant-based diet, which is why there is a rich history of plant-based foods in Japan, um, such as shojin dori, which is a Buddhist um uh vegetarian uh cuisine. Um, today veganism is really, really rising. Um, I was just in Kyoto a couple of weeks ago, and um my friend there who has a vegan restaurant told me there are 450 restaurants in Kyoto where they have a fully or partly vegan menu. That's 450 restaurants. Tokyo alone has 200 purely vegan restaurants, um, plus I don't know, hundreds more where you can have a vegan meal.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

I don't know how I missed that when I was there in 1999 the last time. When I was first there in 1986, I wasn't a vegetarian yet.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Well, I think it was I think this is a fairly recent development over the last, you know, 10, 15 years or so. The word vegan wasn't known back in 1999. Um, you know, that was kind of a a new expression. I when I was there, I used to say I was a Saishokushugisha, which is the Japanese term for vegetarian.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

But um that's a lot, that's a lot of syllables.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Uh, usually I have my guests uh have an opportunity to tell their website a little bit about what they're doing now, uh work-wise earlier on. Uh your website is mioko-shinner.com. That's correct. M-i-y-o-k-o-s-c-h-in-n-n-e-r.com. Is that your only website? Do you have other websites? No, it's my only website. Yep. And uh I've I've looked over your website and I see you you've already said you have several books. Are they all cookbooks? Do you have other types of books too?

SPEAKER_02 19:17

No, they're all they're all cookbooks. Um, I published my my first book was published in 1990, and my last book was published last September, The Vegan Creamery.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Excellent. And I see, uh, do you do you still have the animal sanctuary?

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yes, that's ranchocompassion.org. That's spelled like compassion, but with only one S. And uh yeah, it's we celebrated our 10th anniversary last year.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

And is that a nonprofit organization?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Yes, it's a 501c3 nonprofit organization.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

So can people find a link for donating to that through your website, miokochinner.com?

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I don't do I have a link on there for ranchocompassion.org. I don't know. I okay I I should though, but that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

I'll I'll I'll have to put that up on the liner notes for this. And um, do you still do the epicure? Yes, you do the epicurean tours. Where are you going next? Tanzania was it?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

I'm going to Tanzania. I'm taking a group of 20 vegans to Tanzania for uh uh two weeks, and it'll involve a safari, a little um beach holiday in Zanzibar, uh visiting the spice market, learning about the culture of Tanzania, veganism there, all that sort of good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

And are you a full-time or or part-time uh professor or instructor at uh Berkeley?

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I'm just a part-time. I just teach one class there in the Haas School of Business about food systems.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Excellent. So at some point you started Miyoko's Creamery. So when did that start and when did it end? It it to me I'm wondering how much overlap there is with Steve Jobs with Apple, except Steve Jobs returned to Apple. I don't know if you're gonna be returning to Miyoko's Creamery.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Well, so no, absolutely not, because Miyoko's Creamery uh basically liquidated and had an asset sale. So there's that too. I mean, there's a lot of so I started it in 2014, very, very small. Uh, the idea was um just to be a local producer and have a little retail shop and sell vegan cheese sandwiches to mountain bikers in Fairfax, California. You're in Fairfax, Virginia, right? Yeah, this is in Fairfax, California, the other Fairfax, uh, where mountain biking was invented, by the way, where it started. Um, so that was the idea, and very, very quickly it took off, and we were in uh uh Northern California Whole Foods within three months, and then we were nationwide within a year, and the company just grew. And and I took investment capital, and you know, next thing you knew, we were one of the leading alternative dairy brands in um the uh the country. One of the something that's you know of legal note that might be of interest is uh in, I think it was 2019 or 2020, we got a letter from the California Department of Food and Agriculture that we needed to um seize and desist from using the term butter and cheese on our products because they didn't contain, uh they didn't, you know, stand up to the FDA's uh um definition, uh standards of identity. Um and we knew that other non-dairy or dairy alternative companies had received similar letters um and had just decided to comply, but that's not in my nature. Um for some reason I've always been rebellious, even though I was raised a good Japanese girl. Um, and so um we sued the state of California for violating our First Amendment rights to free speech. And in 2021, um we won that case in California and we set a precedent uh for being able to use this term.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Um that was a necessary win.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yes, that was a completely necessary win. Um luckily we partnered with uh Animal Legal Defense Fund that uh did that represented us. Um, and uh, you know, that was great. So that was a big win for us. Um we, you know, we're pretty sizable company, probably in about 30,000 stores, and we raised some um some substantial amount of money in 2020, late 2021, and in uh mid-2022, um, I got a call one day saying that I've been removed as CEO um and not to come back. Um and so that started, you know, it was it's just one of those things, you know, happened to Steve Jobs. It happens to about 50% of founders that they are removed.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

50%. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

There's a lot that people don't know about startups, and uh it happens more to female CEOs than to male CEOs, and probably you know, higher to women of color. Um, although the stats are a little hard to find. Um, I just know anecdotally from having talked to a number of founders to whom this has happened, it seems like there are more female founders that are removed than male founders that are removed, although it happens to them as well. Um, anyway, you know, things this is all public information. Things got a little ugly. Um the the company sued me for stealing intellectual property. Um, I sued them for um uh I had filed a complaint about certain for uh male executives that were denigrating women. Um things got a little ugly, and then we settled um in court or not in court, out of court um a few months later. But all of this stuff was sort of in the news.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Um I'm not you know, you probably know that a lot of it was um because we were why did people care? Because we were sort of a cult brand. We were a brand that people were really passionate about. And a lot of people, it was almost like a personal affront to a lot of vegans that you know that I had been removed.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Interestingly, it was an affront to me.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Um I stopped I stopped buying Miyoko's brands, and and I was gonna contact you, say if you're still uh getting any profit out of it, maybe I will, but I stopped otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

No, I didn't get anything out of it. Um, and and then um so I was removed in uh June of 2022. Um, you know, I could write a book on this. I'm not uh going to right now, but um in uh they hired a CEO about a year and a half later, and then last October they filed uh what's called ABC, um, which is pre-bankruptcy, um, which is assets uh for the benefit of it's a liquidation of assets for the benefit of creditors.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

And they had a um, and I found out about it not from the company, but from other people that potential buyers who had found out about it. So I put a bid in. Um, I did a quick GoFundMe like two days before I had to get a bid in. And unfortunately, I was outbid by um a company, a competitive company that makes another butter product called MELT. And so they they got the company, they bought the assets to the company, which basically consisted of um, you know, formulas and trademarks and that sort of thing. Um so unfortunately, you know, the company that was really uh an inspiration to so many vegans and non-vegans, and a lot of people who were lactose intolerant who found the butter and the cream cheese to be the best in the marketplace, um, it just was driven into the ground. Um so, you know, one of the things that the one of the investors said when they removed me was, you know, she took I took it from zero to one, and now they needed somebody who could take it from one to a hundred. But it seems like they took it from one to zero.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yeah, well, well, well, there you go. And on top of that, you know, you you talk about all these uh founders who then get pushed out of the companies, but how many of these founders have their name on the company? Your name was on the company. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

And and yep, and it will be on the apparently uh MET or uh this company that bought mine um is about to relaunch the products. So my products will be out again. I mean, they'll bear my name, but you know, I'm gonna be very vocal about making sure everyone knows that I have absolutely nothing to do with it. Um, because you know, if they butcher the brand, which you know happened over the last couple of years where formulas were changed, I don't want to be associated with that because I held I always hold myself to the highest standards of quality and I always aim to preserve the highest standards of quality, clean ingredients, clean supply chain, um, you know, ethical sourcing, all of that. And, you know, I I just want to make sure that I am not associated, I whatever they do with the brand, I don't want to be associated with it if they de you know, well, I don't want to be associated with it.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Is it uh true that you said uh to the uh Miyoko's creamery company after uh you were no longer part of it that they could only use your name, they couldn't use your story, they could only use Miyoko's Creamery.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yes, so Miyoko's Creamery.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Where were you with that?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Well, that was that was one reason. I mean, I believe that's why they sued me, because they wanted they were continuing to use my my name in different ways and my picture. And um, nobody knew I'd been removed yet. It the public didn't know about it, and so I had to hire a lawyer, uh, intellectual property lawyer, to say, yeah, they owned the trademark Miyoko's and Miokos Creamery, but they did not have the right to my name or image. Um, and um so you know it got ugly. But yes, I did I did tell them that.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

You know, this to me gets to uh uh I don't agree uh with those legal marketers, and I'm sure it goes in other areas too who talk about how you know we lawyers uh or business people who just happen to be lawyers and they talk about uh often marketing in terms of widgets. Uh, I have to imagine that one of the reasons why uh your brand was so popular when you were with the company was your name and your personality. And this isn't about widgets. I take it that you you agree with what I've been saying here. You know, we we should be widgetizing our businesses, at least if we want to present these as you know, high-quality products or high-quality services.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

I completely agree with you. I believe we are at a point where there are discriminating consumers that are not just looking for the lowest priced item, they are looking for brands and products that have a soul, that stand for something that are, you know, that they can stand by. I mean, that's why there's all these boycotts going on right now. You see it all over social media, people boycotting certain products that stand for, you know, that that are exploiting people, animals, you know, causing genocide, whatever. I mean, people want to know, people want to feel good about the products they're buying. Um and and I believe that is what I was, you know, we were trying to do. I think that's why people stood by our products, because we stood for something.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Now you've talked about your role as as a uh woman uh in business, as a non-white uh woman in business. Uh, to what extent have you been involved uh with uh women's empowerment groups, women's business groups, women's vegan groups, uh, as well as um uh with uh people of color as well in those in that regard?

SPEAKER_02 31:27

You know, to I mean, I haven't been involved in an official capacity, but I have had uh over the last three years, I have spoken to probably hundreds of women uh mentoring them, listening to what they have to say, providing them with um, I don't know if inspiration but or guidance, but just you know, encouragement, um, listening to their tale, just lending an ear. Um, and I, you know, we have, I've there are a couple of us that have talked about we should put on a conference, we should do something. So I can't say I've been involved in anything formal like that. Um, you know, other than the raw, I've been involved in the past in the raw, raw groups, but you know, what really needs what we really need is a group or a forum or a safe place for women to be able to talk honestly about what they experience in business. And that doesn't exist. Uh most of the women's groups that I've been involved in in the past, and you know, I was on the Forbes 50 over 50 list for women and things. And um, you know, it's all it's all about women that have succeeded and have done a great job, and it's rah-rah, look at us. Um, and these are the tips for climbing that ladder. I think what we need is I mean, that's great. Success is great, but the fact is, most people don't succeed and they put their heart and soul into their business. Right. Or whether and we need some sort of support group to help people to rally around them and help uplift those people. You know, I I honestly get a little tired of all the people on LinkedIn that are talking about, I sold three companies, and by the time I was 28, you know, I had five million in my I don't really care. That why are you bragging? What about all the people that are working just as hard that are struggling? What are we gonna do to uplift everybody rather than, you know, are we just here to applaud the few that have succeeded? No, why don't we try to find some way to uplift ever everybody? And in order to do that, we need to reconstruct the food system in its entirety. I mean, the food system is the only thing I know about. I don't know about widgets or technology or anything else. I only know about why only a handful of brands actually get on shelf, and only a handful of brands actually succeed, and very few small uh producers, farmers, um, etc., ever get off the ground. Um, and so we need to address that systemic issue in order to uplift people. Um right.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

So when you're uh dealing with vegan business, to what extent have you uh faced objections from the bankers, the lenders, you know, anyone else saying, you know, we we don't know if we want to be associated with you. We don't know if we want to uh take that risk. And what has been your response about how no, this is uh a good risk?

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Well, I personally, I mean, when I was involved, uh that was not an issue for me. Borrow, you know, when we borrowed from banks, we didn't have an issue because we were such a fast-growing company. Um, I do know that a lot of small producers uh have trouble getting financing. Um so that but I don't know necessarily that it is because I mean, because a few years ago when I was involved, plant-based was all the rage, and everybody was looking for plant-based companies to put money in or to, you know, whether it was either as a loan or as an investment. So today the money, the pool of money has somewhat dried up, and apparently it's much, much harder to get financing today. Um, one of the problems, however, is that uh because of the way the food system is is cre um is structured, being very highly consolidated and either national or global, um, and not local or regional, it just requires so much more scale and size and therefore money in order to get there. Um rather than you know, back in the day, in the old days, when there were more independent small grocers, mom and pop stores, um, the food system was much more regional and local. It didn't cost a gazillion dollars to get your enterprise off the ground. Today it does because if you can't scale, you can't get on shelf because the the big retailers only want a certain, you know, they only want to work with people that can supply them.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

So there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of hurt. This is why getting financing has become so critical to be in the food business today. Um, it's because a system is designed only for uh those that can afford it to be in it. Um and so most, you know, 98% of small food entrepreneurs are not gonna see beyond their first year. And that's the and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Shifting gears for this First Amendment victory that uh you obtain in California. Uh what was um what were the names of the parties? Were you the only plaintiff? And uh what court was it in? And did it get uh resolved at the trial court level or go to the appellate court level?

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Okay, sorry, you're asking me legal questions.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I probably forgot.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

So yeah, so the the plaintiff, we we were it just it was just uh Mioko's creamery, and we sued the CDFA, the California Department of Food and Agriculture, and we uh also sued uh the individual uh that were that worked for the CDFA from whom we'd received the letters. By the way, I should add they also told us we couldn't use we had an image of um a woman hugging a cow on the website. Cool, and it was from my sanctuary, Rancho Compacion, and they told us we had to remove that picture because all pictures of life of livestock belonged to the dairy industry.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

So that was crazy as well, too. What court? I think it was the ninth dist U.S. Ninth District Court in sixty. It was a federal court, yeah. Okay, yes, and I can't remember who the judge was or anything. I'm sorry, you'd have to look that stuff up. I I don't have a legal mind, so this is the kind of stuff that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

But did did the case finish at at the district court level or did it get appealed to the uh U.S. No, did not get it appealed for the Ninth Circuit?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

No, no, no, it it finished at the uh at the federal, I mean at the first level.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

And and the victory was what you got an injunction from the from the court saying that uh the California government couldn't do what it was doing? Yes, yes, wonderful. Yes who who were the lawyers on that group, or was just Aldifin in-house people?

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Yeah, it was ALDF, and um this is embarrassing. My mind is blank. There was a lead attorney whose face comes to me right now, and I know her name, and um, I am blanking right now. Uh, this is embarrassing. So cut this part out.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I got it because it's it's sort of uh we'll we'll just skirt past it because we do this like Saturday Night Live, you know, even though it's not played live. That's that's how it's uh has so much energy. Now, how did this uh you rancho compasion, right? Yes. Okay, how did that get started and who was involved with that? Because I assume you're not doing it single-handedly. I understand you have at least 90 animals there, so I don't think you're you're attending to all of them.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

No, no, we have staff. Um, yeah, we have about 120, in fact. Um we just yeah, we have uh four full-time staff and a board of directors plus I don't know, dozens of volunteers. Um, I started it initially, um, and it was just me initially, uh, taking care of a couple of goats that someone asked me to take in, and then there were a few pigs that arrived, and it just went from there. So, in um, so it started in 2015. Uh, we got our IRS uh 501c3 designation in 2016, and um, you know, it has just grown since then. First, we started out with volunteers and then a part-time staff person and then a full-time, and it's just kind of grown to where it is today. And, you know, what the thing that I'm most proud of is our youth uh education program where we work with schools all over the Bay Area, including um kids that are uh at risk in foster care, neurodivergent, um with physical disabilities, uh in um underserved communities. And we have uh six or seven hundred kids that come through every year participating in our different programs, summer camp, after school, field trips, and we provide a place where they can connect with animals, be in our organic vegetable garden, learn about the food system that way, and just find a place of sanctuary for themselves as well, too.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

That's wonderful. Now, um, what I wanted to ask you was you've been you've you've been through the punches, I think. You know, the once again, the thrills of victory, the the agony of defeat. Do you have some sort of centering practice, whether it be meditation, spirituality, yoga, exercise, anything, or just eating some good tofu?

SPEAKER_02 41:13

I think all of those, all of the above. I mean, I think I mean, you know, I had a um my two, my two children, my three children were very, very supportive. They're adults, but they were very, very supportive when I was going through everything with Miokos. Um, you know, honestly, being around animals is one way I found peace. Um, my dogs, um, and then of course, um, some of the residents of Rancho Compacion, they um, you know, definitely provided me with a sense of peace. And I have to say, you know, I had really, really good friends that supported me uh while I was going through all of that. Um, it was incredibly painful and scary, especially when I got, you know, when I got sued and all of that. It was um, I was also going through divorce at the same time, so I wasn't getting I wasn't getting any love or support from him. He he was a lawyer also. Uh, so that was a that was, you know, another ugly legal battle going on simultaneously. So it was a very dark period. And yes, I was in a lot of pain. And um, you know, you really start to question when all of this comes at you, whether it's through a divorce, you know, and you've got a lawyer, ex-husband who's attacking you as well, too. And then you've got, you know, um everything going on with your former company kind of making you feel like you have nothing to contribute to the world. And you just, you know, you really do just go through a period where you feel like a failure, you know. And it gets it gets, and then you're spending all this money on legal fees, and then there's like almost, you know, you're just wondering how you're gonna get through. Um, I'm not I'm not you know, 35 anymore, you know, I'm all I'm getting close to 70. So it's it's it was just a very dark period, and I didn't know how I was gonna pull out of it, um, to be honest. Um but I knew that um I think really what got me through was talking to all of the other women and some men who called me telling me what they had gone through.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

And what I realized was what I was going through was not unique to me. I was sort of the poster child for what happens to so many other people, and I was actually kind of grateful to be that poster child because when people called me, it put me in a position where I had to give them support.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

And when you can find yourself in a place where you can help someone you actually help yourself climb out of your hole. You find that you have something to give. And honestly that you know and also enrage me that so many that this whole system of you know the startup system is designed to benefit investors and to uh oftentimes really just kill the very creative the very people that have the creative creativity to start something.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

You know well said on a tangent uh with creativity let's go to our friend Frank Zappa I have no no way of knowing whether he ate meat or not and uh there's this great YouTube talk that he was giving about he said you know he said the music industry was actually more vibrant uh before you had all these uh uh decision makers there who knew the music because instead you had these uh these guys who and maybe women too hopefully who didn't know the music they said I don't know what to think let's just give it a chance we'll we'll go ahead and we'll spend the money on that album and the album would be great rather than having everything just be homogenized. I think you know I think it can be the Broadway musicals look how how safely uh the the the the uh the Broadway investors are now versus in the 1970s when Broadway was so much more vibrant with uh the eclectic mix that they had compared to then you know any kind of if you don't unleash creativity you won't ever change anything whether it's industry or in the arts or performance you have to be able to take a chance.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Today the way it works is that it's the investors and the the suits that are deciding what's going to work. And I heard this you know I had um one of my investors say oh you know we did this it's a rinse and repeat uh you know playbook and they think they can take this playbook and apply it to anything and what you end up doing is you make everything safe which makes nothing stand out right and you lose the home runs you only get a bunch of sameness and that is the approach um that you know the the thing is the the all very few people can act actually have very few people actually have great ideas. And what these suits wait for are the they have no great ideas at all. They have no ideas at all period they wait until someone has built something whether it's in music or you know um Broadway musicals or in art or food or anything they wait until something is already built and then they come in and they we don't need you anymore and they kick out the people that's how it works.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

They're not capable of building anything because they don't have any ideas to start with um and they don't want to do the hard work of building something from scratch um and you know they all they have is a pocketbook uh deep pockets that's it that's all they've got um they're honestly some of the most when you have a conversation with them they're among some of the most boring people I've ever talked to well now let's go to interesting stuff I just love your answer about how what you did about resilience that human connection I've had so many mindful leaders and mindful teachers uh on my program for instance and they haven't talked as much about that to certain steps uh extent some of them do but that's so wonderful how you talk not just about the the the support of your children and all these other people you know you're so well loved but but the animals too that that's wonderful the non-human animals having the connection with the humans the non-human animals as you move forward out of uh uh you know out of all these challenges just so wonderful uh well I mean sure they gave me support and I appreciate them but if I hadn't been in a place where I could help others I don't know if I could have climbed out of it as fast as I did.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

And it's because we all need to find our relevance in the world and you know we need to be I think I think giving is always the best thing you can do. Giving to somebody else and helping somebody else is the best form of healing for us. Right and so anyway you know I'm great I mean I I'm sorry that other people also suffered but that also let me you know into the window of realizing that this is an epidemic this is this is the system right and we need to fight that whole system.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Right and we have CGG we have compassion gratitude and generosity that can really help turn around depression anxiety which isn't always about self-centeredness but the less that we're self-centered uh the the the the more we can get into harmony I think in our lives exactly exactly no it's true yes okay I'm gonna ask something a little mischievous maybe okay you're you're a dedicated vegan on on ethical grounds uh are your are your non-human uh companion animals vegan and uh do do all the uh animals at Rancho Compasion eat vegan all the animals at Rancho Compasion eat vegan because they're mostly uh you know the so-called farmed animals ruminants uh birds etc um and so they predominantly eat uh you know they graze uh and then you know they eat legumes and grains and that sort of thing that kind of feed um my dog my dogs one of them passed away a few months ago but they have always been on a vegan diet uh eating vegan dog food uh right now they're eating um the one that is still alive he's 14 and a half he eats wild earth uh but they ate V-Dog for years I have two cats uh I've had more in the past but uh I'm down to two right now and unfortunately they're not vegan because I don't they can be I don't know that they can be either and so that's the only that that's it that's you know other than that everyone is vegan uh my kids are vegan uh you know they're adults but they have maintained a vegan diet um and uh are uh are vegan for ethical reasons so the name of this show is Beat the Prosecution and I'm sure you and you've already said some of them including this uh positive aspect you know just convincing people to become uh vegans for instance just by bringing them to your table uh but do you have any other ideas for our listeners the criminal defense lawyers and others about how to persuade others that you've not already said because a big part of criminal defense it's persuasion it's persuasion in trials persuasion in negotiation sometimes just persuading our clients to stay off the witness stand because they're going to put their foot in their mouth otherwise yeah yeah I mean you you're in a very different uh industry obviously for me the only advice I can give is always live and speak your truth um and sometimes it takes a lot of reflection to find out what is your truth and how can you how can you speak it in a way that will um you're defending someone I I don't feel like I'm defending veganism I am promoting veganism um and I do it through um through warmth and good food um so and not being afraid to speak my truth when I had a company I was unafraid to speak about what we stood for now I was often told don't use the word vegan because it's oh yes uh use the word plant based it's better there's research about this don't talk about animals so much I didn't listen to that because that wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been true to myself so um I am not the defense attorney that would tell you know maybe one of my investors was like the defense attorney telling me don't get on the witness stand and talk about veganism.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

I didn't listen uh I always spoke my truth.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

So I that's all I can say is do the right thing and if you're at fault admit it I guess and that's probably the opposite advice of what you would say um so I would say I'm not so much about defense as about trying to speak the truth in exactly well yes the truth and the openness so when I know my client's going to tell the truth then we can put them on the witness stand but then I have to do some other things with them uh along the lines of don't do a gest a gestalt don't fill in the blanks uh answer the question only the question and don't get uh all too defensive I mean if the answer is yes or no uh you answer yes or no but no that that is a big part of persuasion you hit on it it's it's the truth it's the uh it's it's being open uh you know anytime a lie is told ten lies have to cover one lie 10 lies have to keep uh cover each of those lies and then we have millions and billions of lies and people can see through that like crazy yes yes how do you manage your time you're involved in all these different projects do you sleep um yeah I'm actually I'll just share one really quick experience I just came back from Japan and I was in a tea ceremony and it was very still and serene and there was a 45 minute period when all of a sudden I realized that I was fully present and not somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

And I brought that spirit back home with me and it's only been a short time but I am really practicing being 100% present in whatever it is I'm doing whether it's chopping vegetables or talking to someone or and not thinking about what's the next thing I have to do. And if that means I get less done I will get less done but I will say I was you know I have been frantic from time to time in my life because I'm trying to you know do this and that and the other thing. Right. So I'm trying to bring more focus in the moment that I'm in into my life. Well what do you do to be present other than saying I'm gonna be present I mean that's that's that's really it's just not you know not thinking about what am I doing next, looking at my thinking about the world um you know it's an art I think and it and it's it's actually it's more of a practice I think to be fully present because we're not we're at a in a world now where a digital world where very few people are 100% fully present. It's a ch it's a challenge for many of us because we're always somewhere else and I'm trying not to be somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

So what is your meditation mindfulness or sitting practice?

SPEAKER_02 56:24

I can't say I have a serious meditation mindfulness practice except long walks wonderful which is just you know really sacred to me and what part of the California do you live in?

SPEAKER_01 56:45

I live in uh NorCal in Marin County and I'm out in the countryside so I have lots of beautiful hiking trails and walks you mention okay you mentioned women's empowerment uh have you just not touched what's going on with uh uh Japan being a lot uh farther behind uh but maybe more ahead than it was a few decades ago about women's rights and and and women's empowerment.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Well there is a prime minister that's a woman now that's true and that's more than we can say in the United States um and I would say that you know there things have changed laws have changed in Japan and you really don't feel that uh that huge difference between there's so many women in in management positions now and good so you know I think things have radically changed um and you know there are lots of rights that are protected by law you know like abortion and um you know these things are not illegal in Japan.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

A woman's right to choose these are all protected um in Japan well I told you we'd be here till nine o'clock my time six o'clock your time it's now 8.58 for me and this has just been a delight I do want to give you the opportunity Miyoko to tell the audience anything you haven't already told them or to emphasize anything. And of course I want to remind everybody of miokochinner.com and I will find a way to put uh Rancho Compasion's uh uh link for donating on uh on my site I know I'm gonna donate and I encourage everyone to donate as well thank you well thank you john for uh it was a great conversation and really just uh to all of your listeners um if you're ever going through a difficult period find someone to help agreed thank you so much Miyoko you've heard from Miyoko Shinner Miyoko Shinner.com M-I-Y-O-K-O S-C-H-I-N-N-E-R-O. I got that wrong M I start again M-I-Y-O-K-O.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

S-C-H-I-N-N-E-R dot com this is John Katz I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer here in Fairfax Northern Virginia because there is no other way but to beat the prosecution thank you thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution this is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources such as our podcast or website is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.