SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I've got a cool guest today. This is the first time I'm talking to him. And I first heard about him, I think, over like 20 years ago. One of the plowshares activists uh supporters when I was uh co-counseling with Ramsey Clark, uh defending the plowshares activists at their jury trial in 2000 for their action against deplete uranium, said, Why don't you contact David Walsh Little, this lawyer who's represented plowshares activists before for some ideas? And somehow I got way laid there. Maybe I didn't find his contact information. I spoke to some other demonstrators' lawyers, at least one or two of them. But here we are today. David Walsh Little is a criminal defense lawyer in Baltimore. I'm interested in him for more than that. I'm interested in for that. Uh he's got a Catholic worker uh activism background of some sort and uh Catholic peace movement actions. He'll tell you about it. David Walsh Little, please introduce yourself to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Thanks, John. Thanks so much for having me. Um so glad to be here. Yeah, my name is David Walsh Little. I have uh my own law office in Baltimore in the fine neighborhood of Hamden. Um I do almost 100% criminal defense work, um more and more federal defense work, but still some state stuff in Baltimore City and the surrounding areas. Um you know, and I and I come from a tradition of, you know, trying to ensure that I'm representing my clients in the best way possible, but especially in um those clients who are in a particular um danger of faced by this um this system as it exists. So so glad to be here, John. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Excellent. You're in private practice. Uh, why don't you give a little toot of your horn to let everyone know your URL?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

So, yeah, so you can find me uh that it's walshlittlelaw.com. So it's W-A-L-S-H-L-I-T-T-L-E-L-A-W dot com. All one word, no periods, no parentheses. So feel free to check it out.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Is there any significance of the uh two-piece of artwork behind it to uh your uh philosophy or law practice? I can't uh see them.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Um you know, uh I'm in my I'm in our basement right now. Um the one right behind me is uh actually a painting by my mother-in-law, um Willow Bickham, who started the um the Baltimore Catholic worker. It says um the world will be saved by beauty, but it's her painting. Um, not by design, so I just happen to be down here in our basement. But um, you know, she my parents-in-law started the Baltimore Catholic Worker. If you're not familiar with it, it's uh um essentially a movement of people trying to do uh resist the works of war and do the works of mercy um um in their own capacity and in their own way. It's not really formally affiliated with any sort of Catholic church. Um there's no sort of normal um private donations. And at least in Baltimore, there has been a long-standing, you know, Catholic tradition of resistance. Um, and if you're familiar with the Cadinsville Nine, the napalm that was made, used in the Cadenceville Nine was made in the basement of my you know my parents-in-law's house. So um, you know, so we have a long tradition in that in that regard. My wife was baptized by Phil Bergen when he was on the run for the FBI. So um, and there is a long tradition in Baltimore of both Catholic um social justice and of course um, you know, others, Frederick Douglass, many, many others.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

So maybe if we can start there, then uh the audience, if they've listened to some of the past podcasts, uh of me interviewing Susan Crane and also me interviewing uh Mark Colville, who's done both plowshares actions and is with the Catholic Worker uh House over in New Haven, Connecticut. Uh, you know, Ramsay Clark and I defended the plowshares for for their action against depleted uranium, including Phil Berrigan, who ended up going pro se. And I know you've done plowshares actions. So uh where did you grow up? What made you go to law school? What got you involved with the uh uh uh Catholic worker and and Catholic peace movement?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Um so I grew up in um upstate New York, um about two and a half hours north of New York City, small city across the river from Albany, Troy, New York. Um it's it's relative importance was about 1860 when the Erie Canal mattered. It's lock one of the Erie Canal. It's been downhill since. Um, but I went to um I went to uh college at Fordham University in the Bronx. Um I grew up in mostly a working class family. My wife and I met in college um organizing against the the Gulf War. Gosh, there's been so many Gulf Wars, I would have been early 90s. Um and so, you know, I wanted to go to law school because I was interested in in courtrooms and done an internship at Legal Aid in the Bronx. Um and and went to Columbia Law School after that, um, and was fortunate enough to um to get involved at the time. There were some students who were organizing. Um, the university was trying to take over the Audubon ballroom where Malcolm X was shot and assassinated. Um, the the medical school wanted it for who knows what. They continue that is Columbia to take land in Harlem. Um, and for whatever reason, the president, of course, started attacking the undergrads. And there were a few law students who were trying to help. We didn't know anything, but um, we're also sort of caught in this sort of attack. And this lawyer rolled up on the subway from the village named Um Bill Kunzler, who sort of negotiated this peace treaty of sorts and got everyone amnesty um and and figured out some solution, at least uh to the kids uh and the law students who who really had no idea what they were doing. Um, and so fortunately I tried to find out what he was doing and was exposed to all his um great civil rights work, and um I felt very fortunate to work with him. He also represented the Catonsville Nine in their first trial in Baltimore in gosh, what, 69 or something. So so Bill was uh a real inspiration for me, and uh yeah, so I I've continued to do criminal defense work, yep, Baltimore and and and and happy to do it, love to do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Right there, you've given me hours of overlapping uh things about the two of us for uh to talk about. We're not gonna not gonna bore the audience with all the minutiae, but uh, let me get a sense of how much we are are not contemporaries then. When did you graduate from college?

SPEAKER_02 7:34

91. No, I'm sorry, wait a minute. Did I say that right? Yes, 91. I'd like it to be later, but it's 91.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

So I graduated in 1985, so we're six years apart. So in 1991, during Gulf War I, I was at a law firm two and a half blocks from the White House. Yes, and uh I felt very isolated that you know it was a corporate law firm. I wasn't ready to uh give my full political voice there. And in the next door office was a great lawyer, but he did have a yellow ribbon in his office, which didn't necessarily mean that he was ready to shout out that the uh war was wrong or premature. I thought it was prematurely started. I'm not a full pacifist, so I would join with the uh peace activists in Lafayette Park during lunchtime sometimes, within the first few days. You probably know Jun Yasuda if you mentioned Troy, for instance, Jun San from the Grafton Peace Pagoda nearby. Yes, I mean I know I know of him, and I certainly know Grafton, but yes, and so this four foot eleven or so Buddhist uh nun is chanting Namu Myo Horenge kyo. That's what's on my wall there. That's her calligraphy, the essence of the lotus sutra, the rest is history. And guess where I'm going this weekend to visit Junya Suda for the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Oh, that's that's great.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

How excited by eighth or ninth.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

So that's not that's not up in Grafton, I suspect, is it? Back up in New York?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

That's the Grafton piece, but my gosh, so it's still there just east of Troy. And uh my first Troy was when I was working with the Wall Street Bank during 1985 to 86 before law school, and one of the places we uh ate at when I was auditing the uh the the Albany division of the Irving Trust Company or their uh affiliate was over there, Troy Operations Division, and one day we ate a Ted's fish fry, which you probably know about.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Oh my gosh, wow, you really bring back. Yes, that was uh that's funny. I won't go down that road too much farther for your for your listeners. Yes, I have been there many times or was there in still there.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

That's before I became a vegetarian and uh and and now vegan. And uh, you know, you're mentioning a lot of stuff. You're mentioning Kunstler, and of course, Bill Kunstler also represented was one of the lawyers representing the uh uh the Chicago 7, also known as the the the Chicago 8. Um so you graduated from from uh which law school? Columbia Law School in '94. So is Fordham where you went undergrad? Yes. All right. So I missed you when I was in Manan because I was there 85 to 86. Okay, now when was it uh so you met your wife in college, right? Correct. And you s you tell me that her uh her born last name was Walsh? Correct. So you've taken on her her last name with your last name, Walsh Little.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

We put our names together, and given my last name was an adjective, it the order made sense as it is.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Got it. Um so you uh you were in law school when you met Kunstler?

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yes, and I ended up, you know, clerking for him the last two years in law school. Him and Ron Kuby were running their office out of his basement in you know, West Village brownstone near Sheridan Square.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

And what kind of work were you doing with them uh during those two years?

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Well, you know, there the law clerk job has um a variety of um different responsibilities. Um one of my responsibilities was to um flyer the neighborhood before the Jewish Defense League would come down and protest so that everyone would get some notice um about what was happening. Um you know, I would do research for the for Bill and Ron. I would follow them to court. Um, you know, Bill had a presence in the West Village at the time. If there were, you know police issues in the neighborhood. Often people, because they trusted Bill, would ask for you know for assistance, and that seemed to fall at least on me when I was there, or just being the person to run out and you know, without knowing anything, sort of try to interact with what the police were doing at the time. It was the 90s, it was a different time in New York than it is right now. Um and you know, I worked on all kinds of cases. I mean, Bill had an array of cases. I remember a death penalty case in Texas where the judge signed the death warrant with a nice smiley face just to give his perspective on what he thought of the death penalty. Um I worked on a little bit of Yusuf Salam's case. Bill represented Yousef post-conviction, didn't live to see him released. Youssef was one of the Central Park Five and is released and vindicated, and now a city council person and for the same area for which um the the rape was alleged to have occurred. Um and just all kinds of of different things. I mean, Bill was uh you know extraordinary person, so very, very lucky to to fall into that for a couple years.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

I understand I understood that I understand that uh Bill was quite the character that uh was it on uh only one occasion or more than one occasion that he would that he would uh uh uh provide donuts and coffee for the uh JDL members who were protesting. Is who who was he representing? The the guy who was alleged to have killed Mark?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Well, the I mean that when I was there, we were representing so there was the earlier alleged bombing of the World Trade Center that didn't come to fruition, the conspiracy case. Um, and so he had a defendant in that. But the one that really riled them was the El Said Nosser defense, um in which um you know there was a murder on the street, and the Rabbi Merakahana was the victim, um, and Bill represented um the defendant and and got it not guilty. And you know, so there was there was always this um, I mean, the the joke in the office was the Jewish defense league would say that Bill was a self-hating Jew. But if you knew Bill, no one loved Bill more than himself. So I'm not sure quite where they had that right, but that was how it how it went. Um, you know, but I mean, Bill, Bill was essentially someone who had, you know, transformed himself. Um, he grew up very wealthy, actually, and over time just became more progressive and just saw, you know, people with skin color darker than his and mine at least, um, you know, much more vulnerable to this system. And so ended up representing all kinds of activists, including, you know, it he didn't, it didn't matter to him. Um, but um, anyway, so it was a very, very interesting practice for sure. Um, and I'm very thankful I got exposed to it early because I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do. I had some sense of uh a political social perspective, but I think you know, he sort of cemented the idea and the interest in doing defense work for me.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

So always am I correct? Do you do you know if this was the progression of of Bill Consul's practice? Wasn't he doing uh a bunch of more uh traditional uh law, maybe uh real estate and or corporate law, but but at some point, was it because it was the 60s or what? He just just realized that that he had these uh addition, these more meaningful opportunities coming his way.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Um, yeah, so he would he he um he did a practice with his brother. I think they did maybe some real estate. I know they did like wills and estates, but he also he wrote a book. I he wrote I have it somewhere. I used to have it, I think I still have it. It was like The Law of Accidents or something. He wrote a book on like torts. Um, so he was he was not involved, and he slowly he really um, you know, I think became a more traditional liberal and joined the ACLU. And I think, at least as he would tell the story, um, you know, he came from from some wealth, and and there was the freedom riders were happening, and I don't know which southern state, Mississippi, Alabama, and and you know, someone from the ACLU asked him to stop in there on the way back to New York for something and just sort of you know give the regards to I forget the name of the lawyer who was there doing the work and representing all these protesters. And you know, the lawyer's like, you know, I don't need I don't need the ACLU's regards, I need some more lawyers. And I think he sort of made some changes and just I think it sort of progressed for him. So, you know, he was never someone, you know, what I always liked about Bill was he would, you know, he believed firmly in dialogue. He believed, you know, he also believed he was a great advocate, and he he would be willing to talk to anyone about these issues. He believed he could, you know, convince anyone to to adopt uh you know a different view, a more progressive view. Um so um I think I think that's in part where it came from.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Are there any specific uh cases or criminal defenses you want the audience to know about that you worked uh with uh uh Bill on or with Kuby?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Um, I mean, I just you know, I was the law student. I mean, I just did the research, uh, you know, I mean, it just exposed to me to a different different perspective. Certainly I wasn't, you know, making any decisions about the cases. I mean, they ran a practice out of New York. Um, they did a national practice, you know, I would get it was mostly research assignments. He was trying to free Leonard Peltier at the time. Um, you know, he died before, you know, now Leonard is out, which is, you know, uh, you know, a wonderful thing. Um you know, he, you know, he, you know, he would just tell these stories about, you know, the Freedom Riders and you know, and you know, and Attica prison, which was of course before I was there. But but Bill, Bill, Bill was also very outspoken about um trying to raise issues like you're doing on this forum. And so um, you know, again, he felt that that anyone could be changed to a different view because he himself was.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

So what was Consular's involvement with the the Attica riots?

SPEAKER_02 17:49

So he was originally, they were, you know, the the prisoners took over Attica. That's not really, you know, that's some distance from New York, it's up by Buffalo, I believe. I've never been there. This is in the early 70s. Um, there was a need for people to go in and try to initially, I believe, negotiate what was happening with the prisoners. There were some mainstream people. Somehow Bill became one of the negotiators, and then sort of, you know, in in in going inside and meeting the prisoners quickly became, you know, who he was, which was the advocate, right? So he was the one sort of making arguments on their behalf. Um, and you know, again, I mean, you can, I guess people can disagree, but it sure seemed like it was Rockefeller who went in and just killed them all for no no real reason. There was progress being made in the discussions. Um, you know, whatever the timeline was that it was decided by the powers that be, it was up and they weren't letting the prisoners do, you know, have control anymore. So um, you know, I I know it was uh, you know, uh, of course, an issue for him that he had to carry around with him, but it, you know, it wasn't him, and it wasn't the prisoners who who stopped talking. It was uh it was uh it was the government.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

So and and did Constor talk to you about how that affected him emotionally and and how long it stayed with him about the killings over at the uh prison in Attica?

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Um, I I I think he would regularly talk, you know, and I would hear these stories. Um, I mean, I think it did sit with him. Um, you know, I I think there was a certain uh, you know, there was just a lot of lies that went on with that from the state of New York. I mean, here they are sending in people claiming they're negotiating, and you know, I don't I wasn't there, but at some point they said, hey, you know, everybody out and we're we're done. You know, whatever that timeline was, we're not, you know, the we can't not be in control of this prison anymore. And, you know, of course, the violence was was where they went with it. So um, you know, I think it it did affect him, and I think you know, he regularly again, I think it just sort of it speaks to his courage to be able to be someone to speak out on these issues. I mean, he he often did, and and certainly that was his personality, but um, you know, it takes a lot of courage, um, you know, to be progressive any day, especially now. So, um, the way that we're locking up people. So um very inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

All right. So when you graduated from law school, where did you go from there?

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Um, so my first job was at um legal aid um in the Bronx. Um, I knew the Bronx some because we we had gone to college there. Um so I volunteered to go there. It's a you know, it's the legal aid runs the indigent defense in uh you know all five boroughs of the city. Um Rudy Giuliani had just been elected mayor. Um, such a I saw somewhere on the news today, I think he's getting another award by the president. That's um shocking. Um, but the um, but so we there was a training that was done borough-wise, so the legal aid would man the indigent defense community in all five boroughs. It predated Gideon and so had the I guess the contract, and we were in training, and it was union, so we were the last hired. Um, and we were three weeks into training. I had not yet had a case assigned to me. I had not yet even reported to the office in the Bronx. We were at Stuyvesant High School in Lower Manhattan doing this training, and the um the head of the union showed up and told all the new lawyers to report to the to the student hall at NYU, and there was going to be a vote on whether we were gonna go on strike. Um, we didn't even know who the union leader was. Um, so the young lawyers went, we went, there was a vote. We went, we we voted to go on strike. The issue was really about the way that legal aid was spending the money internally. There had been a number of historic strikes at legal aid, uh, more about maybe more directly about representation, vertical representation, for example. Um, but so we so I went on strike and walked a picket line in front of the Bronx Courthouse before I had a case. Um, we weren't out very long. It wasn't a very well thought through strike in my opinion. Opinion, we only stayed out for four or five days, I think, now. Um, and then Rudy Giuliani started cutting the budget, and so legal aid got cut. Um, and the sort of the the the administration went through the supervisors and the support staff, and then you know that when they got to the union as the the newer lawyers, we were getting you know pink slips all the time, and then um also because it was a non-for-profit, they would raise some money, and so it was a it was it wasn't the best time to be at legal aid for all that, and then unfortunately, I believe that's still the last time legal aid's been on strike. Um, you know, the mayor cut the money in half, and now you have a number of other indigent defense um offices, but it was really done to to to take the power away from the union. So um, so I stayed there for a little bit, and then my wife and I, we relocated to Baltimore. As much as Grafton is exciting for you, John. I wasn't going back to Troy, New York, my friend. So so we went to the metropolis of Baltimore.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Um did you have any overlap at Legal Aid with Chris Floor? I forget if he was over at the Bronx for legal aid.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

I I I think Chris was in Manhattan, I don't remember meeting him. I of course met him since he's been in Baltimore, but right not then. And I wasn't there for for so so long.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

So you went to Baltimore and then what were you doing professionally there?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

So my first job there, so my wife and I moved into the Catholic worker house there. It's called Viva House, it's in southwest Baltimore. Um I started uh just a sort of a non-for-profit law office there at the soup kitchen. Um, you know, my practice was mostly just representing people who came in to the soup kitchen. That was the main work of the house. Um my wife was teaching at a she's a teacher, uh, elementary school teacher now for many, many years, still in the city. Um and so I just kind of set up shop and did anything from uh you know social security benefits cases to you know criminal cases to consumer cases, um, but mostly tried to serve the you know the the sort of the legal needs of you know the 300 or so people who are coming in, at least that would be the numbers at the end of the month to eat. Um and I did that for a while, um, mostly by myself with some volunteers as well. Um, and then and then also did some legal services and and and consumer housing services at St. Ambrose legal services after that, and then went back to the the Baltimore City Public Defender's Office for a while, 14 or 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Did did you have any uh mentors for when you were uh running your one primarily your one-person legal shop?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

So the two people that that were most helpful to me were um Clinton Bamberger, who who sadly is now passed, but was a clinical professor at the University of Maryland Law School, um, and Mike Milliman, um, who I think also just retired from the University of Maryland Law School. They were both very supportive and very active in the public interest community here. Um, you know, and and Mike and I worked together on John Booth L's, you know, federal post-conviction death penalty case some years later. But that's how I sort of knew Mike. Baltimore is substantially smaller than New York, as I learned quickly. But um, the advantage to that is you, you know, you you you you can be exposed to like-minded people pretty quickly. So so those were the two people.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Did I read it correctly that at some point you had a uh a general agreement with your wife that one of you would have a job where you had health insurance and the other one could then go and uh do some more uh uh non-restrictive work?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, I mean that's kind of how we split it up, and that had been the way. I mean, there's different Catholic workerhouses, but that had been the way sort of that it had been done. Um, you know, we didn't have kids, so we didn't really have, you know, too much expenses, and so that's sort of how we did it. Um and continued to do it, you know, for a while. Um, it, you know, we weren't really trying to do it for the for the finances, obviously. But that way, I mean, at least the way that that Catholic workhouse was run, it it that way you're not asking people for donations to the for the work, um, you know, to pay salaries essentially. So the money that went there, it's sort of a low budget type of situation where people would do some work to make sure you know you were you know you were paying for your own needs. So yeah, we just adopted that tradition.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

My understanding is that at Jonah House, which isn't necessarily a Catholic worker house, at least at some point, if not always, expected that its residents would uh include engaging in actions that could get them arrested. Was it the same situation when you were at Viva House?

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Um, so there was a there was a very close connection between Jonah House and Viva House. Um, you know, again, my you know Brendan Walsh, which is my wife's my father-in-law, he he went to Lemoyne College and been had been taught by Dan Berrigan at Lemoyne, had been in the seminary, left the seminary, asked Dan what to do. He said, Go to Baltimore and work with my brother Phil. So that's what he did. So he was a New Yorker um as well. And so they worked together often. I mean, there it was more like a family situation. I think the mission was a little different. I mean, there was much more of a you know, uh a mission on sort of making sure the services in that neighborhood were being met. Jonah House gave away food as well. Um, and there was certainly some arrests um done, but it wasn't, it wasn't. I mean, I think Jonah House was really seen as the place where most of those plowshare movements, you know, it was either, I don't know, about planned, but there it was a central location for that. I mean, I think Phil saw that much more of his as his um you know, as his as his his mission. And of course that takes, you know, you're risking going to jail for substantial amounts of time. So I think the mission was a little different, but they were, you know, they were very close.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Um I'll ask you directly then. Did you ever get arrested or put yourself uh directly within the risk of being arrested?

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Um I have never been arrested. I've certainly been to a number of protests that maybe I'm not sure what the risk of being arrested counts as, but no, I've never been arrested. I've never been prosecuted.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

So well, here's a funny one, actually, pathetically sad one about where I was threatened with with arrest. Back to 1991, then. Uh, this is before the internet, and I woke up to my clock radio. It was Saturday morning, but I guess uh at least a week before Gulf War One started, and it was announced that the Senate was voting on whether to give George Bush the first authority to um uh start Gulf War One. And um I won't say it was visiting, we'll just say a friend was visiting from out of town, and I said, Do you want to protest? He said, sure. So I was in living in DC at the time. There was a hobby shop nearby. I learned for the first time how it doesn't necessarily make sense to uh uh put a picket sign together with where it's gonna be windy, and you put, you know, if you put poster board on both sides, the actual piece of picket board is gonna be blowing all over the place. So instead, I just held over my sign. I forget what it said, or probably said uh premature to start war. And I proudly showed my sign to this park police officer, and he motioned over to us and he said, Are you protesters? I said, Yes. Okay. You know, I was I was a corporate lawyer then, corporate litigation lawyer. I didn't uh do couple of fence stuff. So I admitted uh element number one, you're a protester, and he said, I want to see your ID. I said, What if I don't show it to you? He said, I might arrest you because he said I want to call you in because if you protest further without a permit, uh, you know, your your name's gonna be out there to arrest. So my friend was uh a little too trepidatious and he wanted to show IDs, so I went along with him. We showed the IDs, and the officer said, Well, you're voluntarily showing me IDs. This was the precursor, 1991, to what I would do as a criminal defense law. You know, six months later, I started as a Maryland public defender myself. And uh I said, Okay, so where can we go to get uh a protest permit? And he showed us and we went to the permit office, I think it was near Union Station. And the person there very nicely showed us this map and showed us this place almost behind the trees uh on the east side of the Capitol where no one could see us. I said, No one's gonna see us there. She said, Well, you know, I'm sorry if you'd uh contacted us earlier, I could have given you a more uh uh visible site. I said, I saw a bunch of anti-war protesters in a plum spot, uh, you know, just w west of the front of the uh uh capital. I want there. She said, I can't give it to you. You know, they they applied earlier. I said, I didn't know until this morning that was available. She said, Well, you know, you can ask them if you can join if you can join them. I said, that's a great idea. So I found them and they said, we're about to leave, but uh there's gonna be a bigger protest going on over at the White House at Lafayette Park. And this is where my eyes opened. Went to Lafayette Park, it was a little past noon. For the first time, I learned something you've probably known, perhaps known forever, that the Unitarian Universalists have just round there have a lot of uh you know pro-peace people. So, and I've I I learned about this whole umbrella there, and um, you know, that's the that's the closest I ever came to being arrested for protesting. So it didn't get too close. So the following weekend, so let's see, the following weekend was a big protest against the Gulf War in the next weekend. I joined the next weekend's protest, and uh that's where I saw Don Fiddler for the second time. Don Fiddler was the uh national director of normal at the time, national organization for reform of marijuana laws, and he was wearing and selling t-shirts that said no uh hemp for oil, not blood. And uh that that's an overlap that I broke bread with Don just a few months earlier, and he helped me uh map out my road to going to criminal defense from corporate litigation law. Uh nonetheless you did uh tell me that you've done uh plow shares defense. Please tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Um so pretty soon after, I don't remember exactly when it was. Um late 90s, I believe. Um I was the advisory counsel um to the gods of metal plowshares, um, which was Kathy Boylan, um artist Platt, Carol Gilbert, Frank Codero, and Larry Moylan. And they were they went on to Andrews Air Force Base during a sort of an air show to celebrate the um the warplanes. There were kids there. It was like a just a good old American family day where you could bring your kids and celebrate the um the military um activities, and they they they protested there and um you know they they uh they I can't remember if it was their own blood or fake blood, but they threw blood on the plane and said a prayer and they were arrested there. So they they faced trial in federal court in um in Greenbelt, which is um you know a suburb of DC. And so I was their advisory counsel. I knew I knew two of two of the the nuns lived at Jonah House at the time, and I had known them, and I knew um Frank Codera, who was a Catholic priest at the time, is he is now not a Catholic priest, but um from and was active in in the Catholic worker circles.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

So no offense to the rest of the defendants, but I absolutely adored uh Sister Ardeth.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

And uh one day she said to me, um, after the uh uh the 2000 uh plow shares against deplete uranium trial in Baltimore County, said, John, I'm not gonna use her uh Michigan accent, but that her wonderful Michigan accent, she used, she said, John, why don't you join us for a protest sometime? And I said, Ardith, I'm more than delighted to do more criminal defense, but it it's it just doesn't suit me for to do that kind of protest where I'm I'm doing a plowshares action where I'm uh you know hammering on armaments and putting myself out there to be arrested.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

That's um during the trial it they they they opted to have a bench trial. It was Judge Alexander Williams was the judge. Um and then when he after he did find them guilty, they were all on release, and so they they didn't want to stay on release. Um they figured they would just get their sentences going, so they you know they moved to be detained, and judge wouldn't detain them, and then they just said, Well, we're not coming back. But there was one scene that I vividly remember from this trial where the prosecutor himself was begging with Ardeth and Carol not to go into jail because they were nuns, and nuns had um it was a wild scene in the well of the court, but they were like, No, we got you know, we gotta go to jail, we didn't do anything wrong, so we might as well get this going. So, anyway, there was they're they're both lovely, lovely people. So, and as were the other three.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Did they did any of them end up going to jail after being found guilty?

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Um, so they they were not facing as severe as some of the other Plash's defendants. It ended up being misdemeanors, everybody did some term of months. Um, my recollection is Larry Moylan did four months, and that was on the low end, and Kathy Boylan might have done gosh, maybe a year, maybe 10 months, and the other three did somewhere in the middle. So, you know, again, given, I mean, some of the plowshare's defendants have have just gotten absolutely hammered. There was no real felonies charge.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

So how long was that trial? And were you the only lawyer at that trial?

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I was the only well uh now I can't remember the name of the woman. There was one woman who who was doing some help that Carolyn Artis knew. Um, gosh, I can't remember her.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Is that Annabelle Dwyer?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Annabelle Dwyer, yes, but Annabelle's Annabelle's appearance was not entered, but she did a lot of the writing. Um, and we called as an expert Francis Boyle um as a witness. I know Francis. Well came came and was and and and was very the judge was very enamored. Um, he didn't uh you know, he didn't adopt any of Francis's views, but very enamored with the professor's uh perspective. But I was the uh yeah, I was the only lawyer, and of course I was you know sort of advisory counsel, so anytime I would object, they would say I can't object because I'm not uh, you know, they're pro se. But I think I think it was a bench trial, so the rules were a little looser.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

It's interesting the judge even let Francis testify. Maybe he reasons this is a bench trial. There's there's really nothing to prejudice against the uh the prosecution for that.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, and I think that was part of the thinking. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm not sure. Um obviously I don't know what the judge was thinking, but yeah, he seemed to be willing to kind of let him develop develop that. And he was he was very good. And I can't remember, it was one of the nuns who did the direct. I really I don't think I did the direct of Francis. They wanted to do it themselves.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

So it was a bit of trivia is that after um uh for I think it was uh their their action over in Colorado or so that uh Ardeth and uh and and sister Carol were at, where Ardith ended up uh doing some uh prison time at the Danbury Federal Facility, and Carol ended up doing uh time, I think, in some, I think it was something below minimum security around West Virginia or so, uh Alderson Prison. And at the time Carol was there, um I'm trying to remember, yeah, Martha Stewart was there, and and and and it was a curious overlap. People wanted selfies with Martha if they were permitted to uh take selfies, you know, uh a very different trajectory between Carol and uh and Martha Stewart. Um at some point, uh, how long after that trial did you end up joining the public defender's office?

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Um so when I did that trial, I was still running the you know my office at at Viva House. You know, I must have let's see, I think the trial was in maybe '96 or ninety seven. I don't think I um started at the public defender's office maybe for another five or six years. I did, you know, I ran that office for a bit and then did sort of housing law at St. Ambrose. So I want to say, and I could be off, I think I I think I started maybe 2000, 2001. And I was there about 15 years, and I was at the federal defenders for about a little under five years.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

How did you feel uh doing federal criminal defense work where I would take it inevitably you were probably doing plenty of um what what are the snitch work?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Um so there is some of that. Um I I I I don't know. I mean, every case is different. I don't think that there is it just really depends. I mean, I'm always sort of amazed, at least in Baltimore, the risk of retribution for at least people in poor neighborhoods, was real enough that the limited advantage that they were getting, um I don't find it as prevalent as is the the cultural belief. Most people are very afraid to do that. Interesting. You know, some people do, um, but you know, and it everybody's different and it depends. But particularly on the you know, they have a range of cases, but the the violent crime, I mean, most people are very fearful to do that in a racketeering case or uh, you know, some kind of drug conspiracy that that that no matter what, inevitably you end up, of course, getting outed. And is it really worth the two, three levels on the guidelines? Maybe it's more, it really depends. But I find often people are disappointed with the with the benefit that they think they're gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

So uh some overlap here. My understanding is that Alec Alex Williams, of course, uh was the uh chief prosecutor, the state's attorney in Prince George's County when I started defending there in uh 1991 with the public defender's office. Alex was previously a public defender in that office. Fred Warren Bennett was the chief public defender in that office before becoming federal public defender in Baltimore. And I understand that uh Fred Warren Bennett was uh the key to having uh federal public defender pay put on parity with uh U.S. attorneys.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Um that could very well be. That was before my time there, John. I mean, I knew I remember Fred when he was doing a lot of post-conviction death work when there was a Maryland death penalty. So that could be true. I didn't I didn't know that, but that that certainly makes sense. He was certainly a well-respected attorney, and I'm sure he fought hard for that.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Okay, before we go on uh to your death penalty case and about beating the prosecution, uh, if you know Kat Yakama Soric, I I can't find her anywhere. Do you know her and do you know if she's still around? You know, I don't.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

And I haven't my family, I have some extended family up that way. I haven't been back there in many years. So I don't, I don't know. Um, I don't even know. I I I wasn't even sure if the Grafton place was still there. So it's been many, many years. My my parents, when they got older, my dad since passed, they moved to the Carolinas. So I don't think I've been back, you know, except for like an extended cousin's wedding for some time. So sorry, I don't have any info.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

So for the listeners, Katya Kama Soric was an interesting person. She did a plowshares action. I forget where she caused some damage uh to some uh uh I guess uh uh control board. It's some military facility. And of course, uh, this being a plowshares action, she uh waited around to be arrested or reported uh what she had done. And apparently she left some snacks, say maybe uh cookies and milk for the uh people who were working there. And uh after she served her time incarcerated, I don't know how long that was, she ended up going to Harvard Law School. And of course, you know, if you go to Harvard Law School, you can write your own ticket. Well, just like you, you went to Columbia Law School, you could have written your own ticket in many ways, and she ended up at at one point doing a lot of activist work herself. So at the time that I was doing the plowshares defense, I was also involved in uh joining in uh with the National Lawyers Guild members in uh defending some of the World Bank IMF protesters in 1991. And she was one of the leaders of that group. Uh but we we we can get to that another time. All right, so what year did you end up opening up your own law firm?

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Uh it has been um it's been four years in a day, John Labor Day 2021.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

What led you to do that? And uh did you have a plan or just figure, you know, I'll I'll figure it out as it goes?

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Um I think I mostly did it just to have the um the ability just to control my work, decide what I wanted to take, what I didn't want to take. Um you know, I still do a lot of federal work, but um, you know, it's nice to be able to do other things. Um, you know, I'd been a public defender even in the city for a long, long time. So um, you know, I was, you know, you're limited in any of those jobs, you're doing what you're doing in the jurisdiction that you're in. So I have some, you know, freedom to take what I want. And as long as, you know, the so far, you know, a thing knock on wood, um, you know, the lights are still on and I'm still paying the rent, and we're, you know, the the the house hasn't been foreclosed on. So, you know, as long as those things are kind of working out, um, and they have been. I, you know, I've just enjoyed it a lot more. I just, you know, I just am much happier, you know, if something goes wrong, I know who to blame. So, you know, it's there's not there's nobody. I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll survive with that. So, you know, I'm I'm glad I did it even later on than probably late longer than I should have.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

What is your uh law practice, mix, and how much of uh the work you're doing is uh federal court-appointed and state level court-appointed criminal defense?

SPEAKER_02 45:40

So it's increasingly gotten more um more and more with the federal stuff. You know, I do some retained state stuff, I do some retained federal stuff, you know, usually smaller things. Um the appointed work has gotten just, I don't know, there just seems to be more of a need. You know, there's there is this concern. We've had now, you know, I had a couple theoretical, theoretically death eligible cases when I was at the federal public defender's office. I've had a couple MS-13 cases since um being out on my own that were court appointed, but under Merrick Garland, there you know just seemed to be a sense that some logic would be applied to doing this, right? Um, so I had one MS-13 case where um it was not a death seek. Um and then uh you know the new attorney general said, Well, we're not, you know, we don't like any of their decisions, so we're not abiding by any of them, and everybody's gonna be um, you know, potentially a um a possible, you know, death eligible client. And I was very concerned about that client, but that turned out not to be. Then they they, which I was a little surprised at, quite frankly, given their criteria, there's this death memo that says if you're illegal and you commit a murder, then you're in the category of receiving death, which really doesn't follow the you know US code or any other principle that I'm aware of. Um, and I now have another one, um, another young man who's 20 who has no record, who there again, there's been no decision yet, but the sense is in Maryland, at least as to the gang violence, at least as to um, you know, particularly, you know, people here without status, particularly with MS-13 or, you know, other gangs from Central America, 18th Street, and others. So um, you know, so there's you know, there's just been more of that. It's more of a feeling, but we're we're we're told we're potentially getting more. And I don't know, it's just the way it's evolved. But I, you know, I still do some state stuff and and like to do the state stuff when I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

So do you currently have a federal death penalty case, or is it that one of your federal um murder cases might become a death penalty case?

SPEAKER_02 48:00

It's the latter. So there, but you know, there there was this, you know, so right now there is not there is not a decision yet whether they're seeking death or not. There is this fear nationally that you know they're ahead of the numbers and there may be more, but so for and hopefully we will not be in that place.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

But what a one-way direction of federalism with the Republicans. When it works uh you know to their advantage to say states' rights, they say that. But when you have states like Maryland, like Virginia, like well, DC, it's a jurisdiction that don't have the death penalty. If uh the Republican president or uh Republican attorney general doesn't like that, they go ahead and just make it a federal prosecution and seek the death penalty, nevertheless.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Sure. Or just send in the National Guard to the cities that you don't like, you can do that too. That's that's real states' rights oriented.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

What would you like to say about this uh federal murder case you have? And I and apparently you've got some strong feelings about the attorney general. If you have anything more to say about it than you've already said.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Um, no, I'm just concerned about the client. I'm concerned about the fact that we're, you know, I mean, I I was here in practicing when we had a Maryland death penalty. Um, you know, I I represented John Booth post-conviction, who was sentenced to death. His sentence was reversed by Judge Blake in federal court, fourth circuit have reinstated the death penalty for him.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

You're not are you talking about the the booth the booth case that uh went to the uh Supreme Court?

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yes, and I was not in it at that stage, it had been up and down so many times. It was over overruled by Payne. Okay, right. It's it's law school um uh lore. Um, but you know, John had been up and down. It was one of the few Baltimore City cases. Um, but he he ultimately was fortunate enough to have a uh after the Fourth Circuit re-imposed the death penalty. The state judge who had a lot of reservations about um imposing it and sort of sat on it and he died. He died naturally before it was imposed. I mean, at that time we were seeing executions in Maryland. Wesley Baker was executed, others were executed. Um, so just to see this sort of coming back, there was always a sense, I guess, that I don't know, that it was uh you know, maybe maybe it's my naivete or political naivety that this was on its way out, that you know, we weren't gonna return to this, you know, bloodbath. And of course, under Trump won there to the end, thanks to Bill Barr, another glorious graduate of the Columbia Law School, you know, they uh you know, they instilled what they executed like 12, 13 people in like a month or something. So um, so you know, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It's just it doesn't, it doesn't seem to fit any of their criteria. Um, you know, and we're dealing with with their kids. I mean, they're 19-year-old kids.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

So in Justice Scalia's dissent in Booth versus Maryland from the Supreme Court, I was stunned that that he would reveal uh a passage saying along the lines of this is uh particularly stunning uh that the majority rules this way when considering the outpouring of support for victims' rights. Because of course, Booth versus Maryland, which got overturned, like you said, by Payne, right, said that you can't have victim impact statements uh to a jury in a death penalty case, you know, which would be the relatives, because the the victim in the case, of course, is dead. And why would Scalia say that versus you know things that he knew from from oral argument or from uh or from uh trial transcripts transcripts? He wouldn't know that otherwise. Um I think that was very disingenuous. Uh the name of this show is Beat the Prosecution. Um to what extent do you take your cases to trial, win them, and what are your secrets to winning in court? Or are there really no secrets in your mind? Is it all just about preparation and devotion to your clients?

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Um, I don't know if there's secrets. I mean, I think I think I think experience matters. I think trial skills do matter. I think, you know, um, you know, the I've always been interested in trials, how trials work, the interactions of trials, the interplay of how people decide things on a jury. Um, so I you know, I I think I try a lot more cases than other people. I I think it's unfortunate there is such a trial penalty in this country. Um, but I don't know if there's a secret. I mean, I think it's preparation, but I also think, you know, the one advantage of sort of coming to it with a little more, I hopefully have a progressive view is that you have a little better understanding of uh, you know, not only why I'm motivated to do it, but that it it it frames not only my perspective, but the arguments and the way you see things and the way um you're able to both develop a relationship with people who are often much more marginalized than me. I mean, I I I I have enough to eat, I have a roof over my head, thankfully. A lot of people don't, um, and and a lot of people are just left out of this system, which is extraordinary given the wealth in this country. So um, but it does frame those arguments and and and it does allow you at least some insight into you know how to you know to address arguments to to regular people. And that's the that's the one of the the few you know real strengths of of the jury system. So um I I mean I I I guess that's what I would say. Um and I'm I you know I like trial, I'm not afraid of it. I they often they often you know, beating the prosecution, they are they often beat themselves, you know. If you can turn those if there was if there was one real value, you know, I'm just always amazed that their own arrogance often, you know, cuts the other way, as long as you can, you know, be aware of it. So every case is different, you never know. But so I'm I'm I'm grateful for the work that I have and the clients that I have.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

It's amazing that in a jury trial alleging my client engaged in online computer piracy, I kid you not, the second sheriff prosecutor, in his one chance to talk in front of the jury during closing, he read his closing word for word from paper. I was giddily stunned. Thank God. Amazing. Wow. Beyond Counselor Kuby and the people you have been with in the public defender and legal aid offices, have you had any other teachers who have inspired and helped you uh do well in court?

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Um I mean, I think there's been lots of lots of colleagues along the way. Um you know, I think um I I think though, you know, it probably probably it would really be probably you know my experience with Bill and Ron that still frames the you know what I you know sort of strive to be. I mean their practice was you know very much about trying to bring a world, a different worldview into criminal defense work. So um I mean there have been many, many others, but you know, I I I I I I wish we had more, you know, progressive lawyers and progressive criminal defense lawyers specifically. So but that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Well, let's talk about that because there are plenty, and we're getting near the end of time, but there are plenty of criminal defense lawyers who say they'd be equally happy doing prosecution, defense, and even those who like defense more they don't have any particular philosophical bent about it, they just enjoy doing it or like making their money in that way. Uh, so how how do we more uh progressive criminal defense lawyers find each other beyond uh people watching this video, for instance?

SPEAKER_02 56:31

I mean, I think I think that's a good question. I mean, clear that that's never been me. I mean, uh that's just not me. I I've never related very well to that view. Um, you know, uh, you know, that you know, people come to this work from a variety of purposes, and there's of course there's skills and motivations different people have. I mean, to me, it is about, you know, you know, that's sort of my I like to do it, I love to do it, but it's also my commitment to people who, you know, otherwise really don't have, you know, what they should have and make, you know, you know, you know, help me understand the world better. So um, you know, I I I I mean I think there's groups, our local National Lawyers Guild has not been very active recently, um, and maybe should be. Um, of course, you know, it's also exhausting work and it's often hard to find the time to connect up in the end. So, you know, I think I think there's always pockets of people or people you can call or people in, you know, in my, you know, the modern day, I guess my contacts are the modern day Rolodex on my phone. So, I mean, I guess that's sort of how how how it practically works. Um, and you just develop your own network. But um probably, probably right now in this administration, probably, you know, better coordination and and and better communication is probably always a worthwhile thing.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

I certainly think Chris Floor is one of them, and he does a great work having monthly uh gatherings at his office for the criminal defense and people's uh civil lawyers uh to prepare their cases each month.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

He does. He does great work with that. I have not been to one of those, but I know he does really good work on the second Saturdays.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Well, I told you we would finish at 8 o'clock, and it's now 8.03. So, David, is there anything else that you would like to tell the audience you haven't already said? And if you don't say anything else, please include reminding them of your URL.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

No, John, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It's been an honor. Yep. And it's um it's Walshlittle Law.com in the fine neighborhood of Hamden in Baltimore.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Not far from Atomic Books, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Not too far at all. We have lots of good restaurants, vegan, vegan bakery for you, John.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Very good. All right, thanks so much. You heard from David Walsh Little, a Laura in Baltimore, a progressive Laura at Walsh Littlelaw.com. Did I get that right? You did. Thank you. This is John Katza Beat the Prosecution. There's no other way. I'm a Fairfax, criminal defense, and DUI Defense Laura. Stand by.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at infobeatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.