SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I tell it to you repeatedly. I'm telling it to you now. I am completely, totally, and excited about our guest today. Now he's a mindfulness teacher. He might say, Well, we're not supposed to be any more excited over one person than the other, but I just haven't advanced as far as that. His name is Michael Carroll. He's wrote and written a series of books. One of them is Awake at Work. What are the other two, Michael?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Mindful Leader and Fearless at Work. And also there's a spoken book called Mindful Leadership Training.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Excellent. Michael is in Pennsylvania. He'll tell us precisely where he is. He's a co-owner of Global. I can't even read my handwriting. Global what?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I'm the COO of Global Coaching Alliance.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Global Coaching Alliance. I'm at Michael at the 2015 or 2016 Mindful Leadership Conference. And uh Michael, we didn't talk about this, so tell me if I'm throwing you off. I'd probably like to do a mindfulness uh uh start to this talk. And he started out by telling us about how he coaches all sorts of organizations, including big corporations. He had us do a sit. He told us his his MM story. Uh Michael, what I'd like you to do is introduce yourself and uh maybe see if we can uh start the audience at some point and getting them grounded.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Sure. Well, first of all, John, thank you for inviting me on to you onto this program. This is pretty cool. I love your energy too. It's nice. Well, I mean, just a little bit about myself. You know, I've been studying uh Buddhism since I think 1970 and began practicing in the mid-70s. My first teacher was his holiness Dujum Rabijay, my root teacher was Chugim Trumba Rimbache, and I've been fortunate to study with other teachers like Trolug Rimbache, Kempokato Rimice, etc. But I also uh my business career is I held senior executive roles at uh Simon Schuster, uh, the Walt Disney Company, American Express. So I've been worked on Wall Street and publishing for about 25 years. Uh and then in uh around 2000, I went out on my own, started uh consulting, uh doing a lot of HR kind of work, and then it evolved into a company, Global Coaching Alliance, which I uh run with my partner Catherine Handon. We deploy, you know, seasoned executives, you know, uh engineers, pharmacists, physicists, former executives like myself into business settings. We do a lot of work in scientific settings. Uh so I've been doing that kind of coaching and consulting for, I guess, uh geez, I tell you, that was 20 some years. It's crazy. So that's my background.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Excellent. Is this a suitable part to uh get the uh audience grounded, or should you do that later on?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

No, well, it's always good to start. It's always good to begin. You know, that that you know, it they say it's good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. Well, what is that? Meditation. So it's good.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

So do you want me to give instruction? Please. Yeah, well, my style, you know, a lot of people give meditation instruction with guided meditation. I don't my style of meditation, we don't need babysitters, people guiding us along, you know. So for those in who are listening, uh one should just simply take your posture sitting up straight comfortably, whether you're on the floor in a chair, just sit up straight, and place your hands just on your knees, uh, and uh, you know, straighten your neck, mouth loose, eyes open, just whatever's in front of you. Down and out a little bit, just uh visual clarity, just sit there for a moment. So as you're sitting there, you'll notice fundamentally two things are going on. The first is uh the vivid immediacy of your senses. There might be some sounds of a traffic outside. In this case I can hear a fan in my room. You might see the colors, feel the temperature in the room. So the first thing you'll notice is this simple, unmistakable immediacy of just being where you are. The other thing you'll notice is that you're talking to yourself. There's some commentary going on. Like, why did John bring this guy on this show? It could be anything, but there's a commentary going on. So when we sit here, we notice these two things. There's no problem with these two things because uh that but not because, but but that's exactly what we work with in the meditation. And the way we work with it is as soon as you notice that you're thinking, you deliberately recognize that you're thinking, and you bring your attention to your outbreath. You just place your attention on your outbreath, and and the way you attend to your outbreath is is very gentle. Uh it's not mental tracking, it's a physical kind of being, your outbreath. And you go out out with your outbreath. Simple. And then sure enough, at some point you'll notice your thinking. As soon as you notice your thinking, label it thinking and come back to your outbreath. So we'll do this for just a couple minutes.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Thank you so much, Michael. I would have wanted to continue, but there's time for me to do that. Sure. Okay, Michael, where did you grow up and what brought you to uh Chonggyom Chung Rinpoche and the other teachers?

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah. Well, you know, I I grew up outside of Philadelphia. I was very fortunate. My mom and dad were really, really great parents. They were very kind to me. And I guess it was 1958, maybe? 55. No, maybe 57, 58. We moved out west of Philadelphia, way out in an area. It's called Newtown Square. But at that time, all of the estates, Ellis Estate, DuPont Estate, the Earl's Estate, Ridley Estate, these are large tracts of untouched land that I got to wander as a young young boy. And I I just lived a very privileged, you know, and uh ideal life. My parents were kind to me. I had a freedom and I was able to enjoy nature. And my parents were kind enough to send me to really good schools. Uh so I I was a very fortunate person. That's how I grew up. And then uh when I went to high school, I went to an all-boys private school. And all I really wanted to do was answer the big question, which is what the F is going on around here? What is this? What is this? What is this thing called life? What how did what is this? I I wasn't really interested in making money or becoming I I just wanted to answer the big questions. So I did that in high school. I was a Catholic school, and they were very, it was a good school, Malvern Prep. They they were very open to that kind of exploration spiritually. And I went to college and got a degree in theology and philosophy.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Where was that?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Uh University of Dayton in Ohio. And uh I, through a series of wonderful accidents, ended up in New York, getting off at the wrong train station at Columbia University. And uh they gave me a job. I got a job at Columbia, and I worked there for about four years and studied there a little bit. You know, I took classes there, but it was, you know, like because I was uh worked there, I didn't go for a degree. But it was there that I met His Holiness Dujam Ribija. And for those who know anything about Tibetan Buddhism, just actually meeting that gentleman is very rare. How do you spell his name? D-U-D-J-O-M. Dujam Ribija. And he uh, well, let's put it this way, he was very generous with me about what's going on here. So in any case, I was way in over my head meeting a master of that level, and he encouraged me to go find Trump Ribbijay, which indeed I did.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

And I went and found him, and he uh he changed my spiritual diapers and was very kind to me and uh invited me to go to Buddha seminary, which I did, and I graduated from Buddha Seminary with his uh guidance, and I assumed, as I say in my book, Awake at Work, that I was gonna I was gonna become a very advanced tantric being, you know, a monk or live in a cave. And he just looked at me and said, Go get a job.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Okay, the person who said go get a job, was that Chumparin Pope? Chumparin.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah, he told me after after seminary. I thought I was gonna go become a monk or something. He told me to go get a job.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

So before you left uh Columbia, was uh Robert Thurman already there?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Oh yeah, he was there, sure. Robert Thurman was important. Him and uh was Hamadi and a couple others were the only people, oh, Cohn's uh they were the trans, they were the only people translating you know either Japanese, Chinese, or Tibetan or Indian stuff into English. And there was a lot of so as someone who was studying Buddhism in college settings, that their stuff was important, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

So so you studied with Robert Tharman.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

No, I didn't I think I was in a lecture of his or something. I mean he didn't know me from a holding round.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

All right. Now, did you which what was the name of the uh mon you say monastery that you went to?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

It was a seminary. It was called the Vajadatu seminary, and you had to do a lot of study to get in, and then afterwards you had to complete a whole bunch of practices, which I did in retreats.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Did you ever um spend time at Naropa University?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Uh no, I've been there. I've lectured there, but I never took classes there.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Well, you say you were trying to figure out what this was all about. How much were you thinking about the uh Vietnam War and whether the war was still going to be going on after you finished college and didn't have a deferment anymore?

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Well, I was I was a social activist. No doubt about it. I was, you know, I was out protesting the war, protesting uh the workers, uh the field workers, you know, the the in California. You know, so I was a social activist in college. When I went to uh when I went down to get my number, which I had 299, and met with the draft board, uh I let them know, look, I'm a conscientious objector. I I I consider what we're doing in Vietnam uh a racist and imperialist act. You know, if you still want me, uh, you know, I'm if anything, I'll become a corpsman. I mean, I was I would I would have gone as a nurse. Right. Uh, but they never they never uh you know and they never called me up. I mean, I I but I let them know in no uncertain terms that you you know I I find you to be the enemy, not them. And I assented to the guy.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

So by the time you graduated from college, that was probably uh within a few weeks after the North uh uh invaded the the South because I got out of college in 75.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

In 75, it was pretty much over by the time I got out.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Okay, so you studied all this Buddhism, and and then what was your path that ultimately went to you uh advising these big corporations?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Well, you know, he told me to go home and get a job, and I'm like, I felt like I was thrown out. I'm like, dude, no, I want to be I want to be a monk, hey, I want to be spiritually cool. So I I went back to New York and uh I you know I I didn't know uh what to do right away, but I went and uh and uh got a master's degree in adult education, and uh I did my thesis on executive development, the competency modeling uh using boyotts as model. I know that's kind of inside baseball, but uh that I did that at the American Management Association, then got a job with Bankers Trust Company. And uh, you know, Bob's your uncle after that. I worked, I was there for four years. I got a job at Cheerson Lehman, American Express, Payne Weber. Uh so I was on Wall Street for about seven years, you know. I cut my teeth there. I wasn't like any kind of senior executive. I did a lot of cool work, though. Uh then got recruited over to Simon and Schuster, where I ultimately held a pretty senior job there. I was the head of HR for all of their operations. So Simon Schuster owned, I'd say about a couple dozen businesses. And I was the HR guy overseeing all of the operations there for some time. It shifted here and there. I did international work and stuff. Um but you know, that was a pretty senior job. And then I got recruited. Well, actually, we got laid off because they got bought, and then Disney hired me as uh VP of HR for uh Disney Publishing Worldwide, which I did that for some time. So I was in corporate settings. So you're focused on human relations uh while you're gonna be able to do that. Human resources, straight up compensation, employee relations, hiring, firing, restructuring, you know, organizational development, you know, you know, executive development, succession planning, all that kind of HR stuff. And the name of your company is again, and what is your URL? Uh well, Global Coaching Alliance. You just Google that, you'd find us. Uh what we do now is we deploy, you know, pretty experienced from what executives and professionals into uh organizational settings where leaders need uh coaching, not so much from any more medial situation at all, but uh often uh for instance, I do a lot of work with data scientists. Data scientists typically up until by six years ago were expected to just uh impart complex information to enterprise leaders to make difficult decisions. Good stuff, you know, statisticians, et cetera. Now they're expected to influence. Right. And typically they're not trained in those social intelligence skills. Well, I one of my areas of specialty is working with data scientists in how to influence skillfully and not get trapped in binary mindsets. Uh so that's an area that I work, but I do work with boards and CEOs and sometimes pretty complicated stuff.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

When these uh corporations um engage you, they they will have seen if they look you up about this awake at work and uh being published by Shambhala. So why do these companies want to hire someone who was involved with Trumparin Poche? I mean, you know, they're smart enough to know that just because mindfulness is all the rage, they're not gonna automatically uh uh hire a mindfulness guy if that's even what you call yourself.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Well, the vast majority of the work I do has nothing to do with mindfulness. There we go. Yeah, I mean, I don't go in. Anyone who goes into an organizational setting with a solution in mind before you understand the problem is the problem. All right. So, you know, my job is to help people solve their problems. And uh often mindfulness is part of it. I mean, many of the executives have worked who have worked with me learn meditation. Uh many don't, nor do I want them to. I don't I'm not interested in inflicting mindfulness on people. And uh I don't really that many of them, I mean, I just got off the phone with the chairman of a board of a company that they don't know. I mean, I don't think she knew I wrote any books. Maybe she did. I don't know. We never brought it up.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Well, we spoke at length uh before we got on air, and there were three things I learned about you, or learned more about you, that made me all the more interested in speaking to you uh in no particular order. Uh you've dealt with lawyers a lot, and the name of this show is Beat the Prosecution. Now, maybe you haven't dealt with the criminal defense source, but I'm interested in getting insight about that. We talked about how I I guess everyone has had their uh share of hell in life, and you've had that as well. And I was wondering how uh you've dealt with that. Um, and also you were telling me for the life of me, his name was Mushimoto or something like that. Uh, this samurai guy, and that will help uh criminal defense lawyers a lot, I think. So there's three of those things that the at the least that I would like to talk about. The um you're dealing with lawyers, dealing with hell, this Mushimoto guy, and there's more I want to talk about than that, of course. It's it's Musashi. It's Musashi. Eventually we're gonna talk about MMs, yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Well, where do you want me to start? What's your question? Well, uh cover any of those first. Well, it attorneys, well the MM story. I'm an H I'm an HR guy, right? So I have to deal with employment law a lot. I have to give advice around hiring, firing, restructuring. So one had better understand employment law. Uh, you know, while state laws are often different, you know, so you You know, I do work in California, I do work in New York, I do work in Pennsylvania, do work in Washington. So, you know, I I have to coordinate my advice with employment lawyers, whether they're in-house counsel or you know, outside counsel on how to execute HR activities, not only skillfully but legally. So I'm quite used to working with attorneys from an employment law point of view. Often, however, though, and just I get involved with attorneys who uh let me see if I can put this gently, who enjoy the toxicity of their job.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Way too much. You know, and um, you know, just an example, one that I just recently came across, I won't name any names, but these are pretty serious large firms in New York. So this firm, there's about I guess there's somewhere between eight to twenty million dollars on the table, okay? And it's clearly an adversarial situation. And this one very large firm is like, I never signed a contract. Whereas the other person said, You have the contract, just because you didn't sign it, you acted as if you did, blah, blah, blah. You guys are well, the big firm is kind of not doing so well. So, what they did is they leaked steel documents about a past divorce into the marketplace about the client, the about the up you know the uh the opponent to sully his reputation as a trusted partner in any negotiation. And they plead like, I don't know how it got there. Well, you know, you guys know better than I do, judges aren't stupid. So that level of poison, right? Uh is is uh is very it's it's more than discouraging, it's it's demeaning. And uh I deal with that all the time, I don't know. I understood. But here's the thing. In in this, in British, in in British philosophy, legal philosophy, it it kind of sets up an underlying, often unspoken ethic of adversarial relationships. So that the the the implicit notion is it's my job to maximize my client's position, even to the unreasonable disadvantage of my opponent. Right. And that's almost like an underlying ethical impulse to all be and that that that is unnecessary. And often it does not serve anybody, including yourself, if you take that perspective. And it's it's it's rigid, and often it freezes a mindset that misses opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Right. So before we got on the camera, Michael, you were talking about some good things about um uh taking advantage of the situation when the other person is acting angry and is uh sending all sorts of expletives or other uh dung out of their mouth about dealing with negotiations. And I think you've talked about cooperation as well. I'd love to hear from you about uh doing all of that, including when dealing with the uh particularly toxic acting people and the people who love uh being in the toxic atmosphere.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah. Well, I think this is where the mindfulness comes in. And whether you're an attorney or just a mom, not just a mom. That was stupid. Would you edit that out? It was whether you're a mom or just an attorney, how's that?

SPEAKER_03 26:06

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

The the issue is um uh from a mindfulness point of view, is how do you train yourself to be comfortable in your own skin? Right. And if you're if and that takes time. It isn't uh it's it's very natural, but but often it it is an elusive dynamic of being human. And if one through training uh becomes comfortable in one's own skin, then having a child who has a tantrum or or maybe having a child that's disabled, right? Or in the case of a lawyer being in a very difficult situation or being confronted by a toxic opponent, these become less a threat and more an invitation. Right. Now the invitation isn't always pleasant, but that's not the point. You know, chasing after pleasure in these circumstances is a waste of time. So the the idea of developing oneself through mindfulness to be available to your experience so that you can see clearly what's going on is is what what this practice from the point of view of an attorney what what it would bring you to. So insults are not necessarily a threat, though the person throwing them at you would like you to perceive them that way. Right. They're actually a window. You can see more about your opponent by looking through the threat than actually reacting to it. But that takes confidence. Right? And that confidence is not confidence in something, it's confidence as something. It's your presence. Comfortable in your skin. Yes. So that that that that I think that you know a final thing here with that and this is has a lot to do with tantric Buddhism is this this con this this comfort in your own skin and this confidence in your own presence begins to emanate a sense of nobleness. That nobleness is really powerful, as you well know in a courtroom setting. If the attorney is noble, a noble person, and that emanates, and the jury sees it, and the judge sees it, we're already at a different level of conversation.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yes. Yes, and I think honesty is a big part of that, Michael, because I remember when I had my first of my first DWI trial in front of Judge X. It was actually my 200th DWI trial in my career. He uh raised his voice to me within five minutes. He said, Mr. Katz, if you keep objecting like this, we're gonna be all here all day. I said, Well, we don't have to be judge, but I mean, look, you know, the prosecutor's really trying to get in a bunch of prejudicial stuff here. And look, I've done 200 of these trials before for DWI. I'm not gonna object to everything, but uh, I hope we get back on Kilter. And that ended up being the warning to the prosecutor that he didn't want the honor of the judge to go on him instead and say, you know, Mr. Katz is right, you're doing all this objectionable stuff. And it got to the point where uh the judge just let me try my case. And then uh a month or two later, I had a uh a less serious trial in front of him. It was a jailable, reckless driving case because my was faced up to six months in jail for going 40 miles, more than 40 miles over the speed limit, allegedly. So I worked out a sweet deal with the prosecutor not to ask for jail, but I still had to convince the judge. So in the moment, right, mindfulness is so much in the moment. I was saying, well, you know, my client had just picked up his new BMW two days before. He didn't realize how powerful it was, he didn't realize how fast he was going. I said, Maybe he should have gotten a Ford. And the judge covered up his mouth, and my client said he was covering up his mouth because he seemed to be happy that I made him laugh. Yeah, but it didn't.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Well, no, that you're in the right direction. That there is the there's room for delight, there's room for humanity, right? There's room for nobleness in even the most contentious of situations.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Right, and then and then to bring it to the next level, I showed up with this uh with a client two years later in front of the same judge for a calendaring session, and the judge sort of lectured my client. I was a very serious case. It may have been nothing more serious than possession of marijuana when people were more up in arms about marijuana. And he said, I see you have Mr. Katz as your lawyer. You're lucky to have him. You're lucky to have him. Yeah. Uh I want to bring up with what you're talking about dealing with people acting, nasty, telling insults. It goes beyond that, doesn't it, Michael? As you were saying, for instance, with you know the unsealing stuff, just working to harm people's reputations, even lying to do it. Remember, there was that uh that great uh that great story of a Ha Queen. Uh I don't know if they're talking about Ha Queen Akaku because he was apparently a really firm teacher. And uh is that so, right? There was the woman who bore a child out of wedlock, and she pointed her finger to her parents, Ha Queen, that the priest. I think he was a Buddhist priest, he impregnated me. So the parents bring the child over to him and they said, Well, you impregnated her, she's too young to raise the child, you raise them, it's your child. And he said, Is that so? So raise the child, the child grows into this beautiful child, you know, from the get-go, and then the uh daughter later on says, Okay, he's actually the father, because now the father's the father's made some money, and uh he'll he'll be able to support the family. So the parents go back to the Ha Queen and they say, Okay, uh, you're not the father after all. Uh it's that guy over there, he's the father. So give us the child back. And all Haqueen would say, Is that so? Now maybe that's easier for a Buddhist priest than someone who's running a business, someone who has their own family, but it's it's an important lesson, which is it's a way not to let other people push our buttons. A person can tell all sorts of lies about me today, and I can say, you know, not true, I'll deal with that later, but then that can scare the crap out of my opponent if they can't push my buttons right then and there, and then they're they're scared as anything about when I'm gonna uh proverbially ambush them next time. You know, honestly, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Well, you know, look, your audience is well aware of this, is nowadays with social media the ability to create an atmosphere of fear and intimidation, where people lie about you, they create false impressions, so that your reputation is put into question, possibly ruined, people don't want to do business with you, they don't trust you. This happens every day. It's now a standard operator, it's celebrated at the highest levels of authority in this country. The issue there from a spiritual point of view, which I think your story of the Zen master speaks to, is no amount of material wealth can protect you from that level of degradation and lies and toxicity. However, there is a spiritual wealth that I call fearless abundance. Fearless abundance that when you are spiritually wealthy, if you're a spiritual billionaire, meaning that you've experienced the awakened state sufficiently, the this level of threat is far more interesting than it is challenging. And if you if if if for and I say this to people often when I'm coaching them, uh uh and they're uh they're having a difficulty at work, and uh, you know, it's like oh this guy did that. I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. If you were worth a billion dollars, literally a billion dollars right now, would this bother you? And they go, no, I wouldn't care at all. I said, exactly. If you were a spiritual billionaire, you'd feel the same way. It's very similar. It's very similar. That you're you're confident in who you are enough that it doesn't matter. You it's curious, right? And that's not easy to attain. I don't want to be, I don't want to be frivolous. I don't want to give the impression to your audience that, hey man, you don't attain enlightenment, dude. No, that's all I'm talking about. I'm talking about there is a level of human confidence that is inexhaustible, where we can face any conflict and any difficulty with a sense of nobleness and presence.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Absolutely. And the practice of uh Tai Chi Kwan really helps me in that regard. It really helps me strengthen my mind, body, spirit, and soul. I was pushing with a new group of people uh last Thursday because I knew I was going to be away over the weekend uh from being with my two favorite teachers to push with. And one of these people, he was just very, very aggressive. And and I want that. I mean, that translates well into me defending in court. And uh he seemed almost on the level of heartlessness, and so with that, I smiled at him. I didn't verbalize it to him. I said to myself, thank you, prosecutor, for teaching me how to work again with the next heartless seeming prosecutor. It just delighted me.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Yeah, good for you. That's it. See, those metaphors are doorways to spiritual practice. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

How about it though, Michael, when we we feel betrayed or that our path is crossed by a loved one. And uh one of the greatest lessons I have from that, well, at least when dealing with your children, but you have to go beyond that is the Inuit people, at least with the young children, where if the grand grandparent is being uh hit by their grandchild, they'll say, You angry, you want to hit me some more? Um to I mean, deeper than that is you know, you really don't want your spouse to be hitting you, but the idea being there that there's something causing them to want to hit. And uh they're sending out a message, they may be giving a gift and communicating something rather than being totally totally silent. Now that's a that one's a huge challenge, just like the huge challenge of I feel that my clients betrayed me. But I mean, look, if I've got some clients who have done some of the nasty and awful things they've been charged with, I can't exactly expect they're gonna turn around and be an angel to me.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah. Well, you know, uh part of part of the bodhisattva path, which for your audience in Buddhism, the bodhisattva ideal, is uh living your life for only one and one reason only, which is to relieve the suffering of others and to inspire the best in them in order for them to become uh fully realized. That's all. That's it. That's your only job. That's it, that's it. You don't have any other job, which is fantastic. It makes life real simple, right? But in in the process of trying to live that, you begin to notice that you have to take on other people's suffering.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

That that you you you don't get through this scot-free. Right. You your job is to actually take on other people's suffering, not point of from the point of view of like, oh, woe is me, or like, yeah, let me take it, let me you you get away scot-free. No, no, no, no. Is that you you don't you don't live life from the point of view of seeking blame. You you you you live life understanding that things go wrong.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

And that you're willing to help clean it up. You're willing to clean it up, you know?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

So one must go in very realistic from a spirit from a Buddhist point of view. Very realistic. You know, the the Buddha taught the very first thing the Buddha said, right? Everyone's like, Hell, Buddhism is really nice. First thing he said, first thing he said, he said his uh his fellow yogis would kept asking him, dude, you've changed. What what what what happened, man? And he wouldn't talk. And eventually they said, tell us what you found out. He goes, Well, the first thing I found out is life sucks. And what he meant was, you know, life is suffering. What he meant was that the situation isn't going to work out as you thought it was going to work out.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

It doesn't work out. And we don't need to be afraid of that. There's something going on here that's more fluid and more unreliable. In its unreliability, there's something magical in it. Don't be afraid of the fact that it's uncertain. Don't be afraid of the fact that you can't figure it out. Go toward that. So, you know, life is tough. You know, I always say there's a fierce, you gotta face the fierce facts of life. First is life hurts sometimes unbearably so. Nobody uh nothing can make it is gonna save you. Right. Anything can and does happen. And uh you're gonna die really soon. And when you do die, 99 and 9 tenths percent of the people won't even notice. And those who do will forget real quick. That's it.

unknown 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

That's fierce. That is fierce. And from the Buddhist point of view, you gotta be realistic about how fierce life is in order to help others.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Right. So, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Well, you know, of course, then there was Bodhisattva never despised from chapter chapter 14, 15, or 16 of the Lotus Sutra, and he would bow to everybody, but sometimes from a distance when he knew these were some uh deadly dangerous people, and he'd say, Why am I bowing to you if you're holding rattling a sword at me? He said, Well, you you have Buddha nature. I just don't know if you're gonna get anywhere near Buddhahood in this life, but in one of these lives you'll you'll reach Buddha, and he says.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Right, we're not fools, we're realistic, but we're not fools.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

I think you told me that you've been through uh your own hell before. Are you willing to share what the uh what one or one or more of those hells were and and how you've dealt with it?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Well, you know, I I should put a context on it. You know, I on a scale of one to ten, one being uh, oh my god, you live that life? Oh, whoa, that's tough. Ten being, dude, that's the best life you can ever have. I'm up in the 10 realm. Wow. Okay, my parents were so kind to me. I, you know, at I was six foot two in seventh grade.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Okay, that helps.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Nobody ever, you know, not Irish too. So no one ever effed with me. You know, I always was I wasn't bullied. I, you know, so I am very fortunate. So I by no means am I going to even pretend that the suffering that I went through compares with the suffering of many of the people I bumped into my life. However, the thing about being human is having a broken heart. Every single human being on this planet and I would be venture to say that animals as well have a broken heart. There's something there's something about the sadness of love that we all have. Everybody on this everybody listening right now knows their heart is broken in one way or another. Whether it's because of a a lost love or a someone who died or someone who won't c return your call, or seeing the suffering of an aunt or an uncle or a friend. That brokenheartedness is very powerful. Very, very, very powerful and very, very deep. We all know it. And uh I've been very fortunate to be tra I'm not very good at going there, but I've been fortunate to be trained that that sadness of a broken heart is noble.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

And I have not throughout my life I've tried to get to know it more. And it isn't just my own personal hell, it's seeing the suffering of many people I love very much. And people I don't love too, by the way. So that savouring it. Savoring that suffering uh brokenheartedness uh it has been very very formative for me in my life, but I have not you know lost a child in a car accident. I've had friends who have. You know, so maybe some of your audience have lost a child. That's like serious territory, man. I haven't been there.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Have you um counseled people on how to deal with their uh loss, suffering, and brokenheartedness?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yes, I have. Yes. I've been there, I've I've lived it with them. I don't I don't yeah, I try not to give advice. Well, that's not true. Anyone who knows me would go, dude, you never shut up. What are you talking about? But you know, I try to be with them in it as well and try to help people through things like that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Being present with them. That's right. So important. And um I do that with my clients all the time, you know. As soon as I say, okay, we're all prepared for court, beautiful day out. Let's go for a walk. Let's just be present with each other. Yep. Ram Das, I remember he said that uh he called or sent a letter to these uh parents of a child who's only about five or six and died in a car accident or whatever, and he said, I'm I'm not gonna tell you that you're gonna get over your pain right away, but I just want you to know that uh you you totally have my uh my understanding and caring here. Just just that presence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah, absolutely. And the part of that, see in in Buddhism, there's in karma, with karma, there's three aspects of karma, very similar to the practice of law, by the way, is there's intention, conduct, and impact. We have a lot of control over our intention. And that's why in Buddhism you take the bodhisattva vow, your intention is to fulfill the bodhisattva vow, which makes it life really easy because your only intention is to help others, to relieve suffering, and to inspire the best in others. So your intention is pure and and you live that intention and you have control over that. Whereas conduct, you don't have as much control, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

You you try your best, but you know, you make mistakes. You you thought you took a right-hand turn, you do the left-hand turn. You you you meant to make a joke, but it you know, it wasn't so funny, or whatever, you know. But we try to conduct ourselves in a way that is uh that is helpful and uh tries to achieve our goals of helping others, but things get in the way. But impact is where we have the least amount of control. Yes. We have the best of intentions, and we may conduct ourselves flawlessly, but we end up getting blamed for something we didn't do, or we end up insulting someone that we didn't intend to insult, whatever. The way one actually can have some level of quote control or influence over impact is through your presence. Yes. And that quality, from the point of view of how I'm trained, there's a it's called uh Wang Tong or Ziji, which has a quality of noble evescence. And when you're with someone who's you know, maybe grief, you know, yearning, maybe mom had died or their son had died in a car accident, it's your presence. That presence of noble openness is healing. Right. And it's not a causal relationship. It's a it's a kind of an evescence that permeates and elevates. Um so that's why it's important to do this practice because over time one becomes comfortable with oneself, and that quality of who we are, Buddha nature, as you said earlier, begins to emanate. Right. Begins to create an atmosphere where people go, oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

You know.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Well, um, I've I've said before, I think when talking with another guest about how uh you know talk about dealing with difficult people, there was this lawyer from Brooklyn, and he called me up on the phone one day and he said, Jen, okay, I won't do the Brooklyn accent, I'll try not to. I said, Yeah. He said, I'm gonna follow this injunction action to ask to close down your adult video store client. Well, we're dating ourselves, so it was about 15 years ago when we actually had adult video stores, and I was about to ask him a question about, you know, uh uh when he was gonna get me a copy, and he hung up the phone. So I saw him the next morning when we were gonna have this hearing, and I said, You from and and I think he did this because it may not have been trying to intimidate, it may have, but uh the the rules only required the lawyer, let the other side know they're gonna file for the injunction, and then there was nothing about them having to stay on the phone any longer or being nice or whatever. I said, You from Brooklyn? He said, Yeah. I said, you know, I'm an adopted New Yorker. Uh and I grew up in southern Connecticut. I worked on Wall Street, I went to uh summer camp with the New Yorkers, the Long Islanders, the northern New Jersey people, and he seemed taken aback. He said, Yeah. I said, Your Brooklyn won't work on me. Good. I said, save your energy, your Brooklyn energy and nastiness for someone else. Never bothered me again. I had to deal with him with that case more and several other cases. I mean, I just held a mirror up to him, which is you're trying to pull Brooklyn intimidation on me. I'm inoculated to it, it won't go anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, yeah often we can misinterpret Buddhist approach as way too sort of passive or willing to sort of you know be be you know overly kind or overly gentle. And and I that that's reasonable that people could come to that conclusion. I get it. But uh there is there is a there is a uh a phrase called ruthless compassion, right? And this ability to be tough, direct, and uncompromising is not excluded from the wisdom of mindfulness. Right. The issue, though, is that it isn't fraught with aggression. Yes, it has to do with sharpness and clarity. Yes, and and being able to be sharp and clear without aggression is not easy. You know, it takes time to practice. But if you really are able to do it well, you'll notice that behind it is a sense of humor.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Yes. Well, I'm gonna tie on the the humor uh aspect right there. There there was a longtime prosecutor who's uh uh left the administration uh left his office when a new so-called progressive administration was coming in, and he uh shouts at me across the the the courtroom because he's uh irritating me about something, but he's not supposed to do that because my client was with me. So I saw him the next day and I said, I won't use his real name. I'll say, Joe. I said my client was standing next to me when you were uh uh when you were lecturing me. You know you can't do that. He said, Yeah, you're right. I said, You're a pimp, Joe. And he uh looked a little irritated, and I said, and so am I, and he just broke down laughing.

unknown 52:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

You got the point, is that there's no toxicity behind the clarity, you know? Right, you can be as tough, as sharp, as penetrating as you want, as long as there's no toxicity behind it.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

So I'm able to deal with uh you know seeking calm in the eye of the storm. So I keep thinking about how am I gonna help my client with that? I can tell my client until I'm blue in the face, look, expect anything. The courthouse is messy. If I tell you this is my favorite judge, uh we we may end up feeling like it it's his evil uh twin brother. Uh the the cops may uh may scowl at you. And I say to him, look, you know, I'm accustomed to this. You're not accustomed to it. I'm just gonna I'm gonna protect you as much as possible. I'm gonna be a team with you. If you see the cop or prosecutor start to talk to me, walk away. I said, but in that courtroom with the judge right there, unless the judge is off kilter, the judge is gonna uh help call balls and strikes to a point and uh and keep some level of fairness. I said, if you see the judge yelling at me, it's a lot better to get uh what do you what do you want? Good grammar, good taste? And I tell him about so many judges who dispense so many justice, so much justice to my favor after yelling, it's almost like they're yelling to try to let say try to sound fair. Okay, okay, prosecutor, I've yelled at Mr. Katz. I I I'll give you something. I yelled at him, now I'm gonna give him the win. Now I'm gonna give Katz the win.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah, well, I mean that the that in negotiating, which is what the courtroom is in many respects, even though there are laws involved, is what appears to be uh an obstacle is off often a doorway. I mean, you it it is it it takes very subtle awareness to be able to read all those signals. Now, being able to get your client to read them and be comfortable in them, God bless. I I you know, often as you are well aware, many of the clients get into the situation because they don't know how to pay attention to the situation well.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

You know, so suddenly expecting them to, you know, become comfortable in their own skin, uh if you can help them, you know, I think it's through your presence and your advice, but um, you know, I from my point of view, as I say to many people, I've said this many a time, get a call from someone, they go, Oh my god, my husband just divorced me for this young girl, you know, she's he's leaving, I'm freaked out. I really need to get, you know, but learn how to meditate. I said, no, no, no, no, no. You don't need to learn how to meditate. You what you do need is you need to wish that you had been meditating all along, right? So it's the same thing with the with many of your clients, I'm sure, is like now's not the time. You you should have been meditating all along. You should have been able to be comfortable with who you are, so then when you get into a situation like this, you have the power and the strength and the presence to be here, you know.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

I think what helps my clients feel a little more comfortable in the courtroom with me is they see that I'm fighting like hell for them. If they're not going to testify, most of them don't, they don't have to worry about that. So then the only talking they're doing is if they have to talk to the judge if they're being sentenced. Are we dealing with a bond hearing? But it just gets back to that the presence, the energy. Uh you know, so many people have this stereotyped by the lawyers who just want to take the money and run and not caring about the client. Uh, but then I deal with the opposite where I had a prosecutor, one of my more favorite prosecutors, I said to him, You seem to be getting irritated at me. He said, Nah, John, I'm not getting irritated at you. I just have no clue what makes you tick. I don't know how you make any profit. You seem to be working 24 hours a day. Well, that's good. Let him think I'm working 24 hours a day and don't let up. We are, I don't know how will I timed it. We're coming to leap towards the end of past the hour I told you we're at. And so, with that, at minimum, I wanted you to tell us the story of that uh that that toll booth taker and the MMs. Oh, okay. You like that story, huh? I love it and adore it and worship it almost.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Well, you know, it it comes from the the book I I wrote called The Mindful Leader. And uh the the the issue of what defines a mindful leader, there and the book goes through many dynamics in there, and I encourage people in your audience to get it. I like the book if you get it. My publisher would be happy, but I don't flog my books. The point is that there is a core there is a core element of the mindful leader, which is that a a leader's core job is to inspire the best in in others. That's the core gesture, inspiring the best in others. And that can be done anywhere, anytime, by anybody. And uh often we think of leadership as, you know, some man or woman at the top of an organization with lots of levers to pull and strategic direction and all, which is true. I mean, I'm not saying that that's not true, but from the point of mindful leadership, leadership is a much more fundamental issue. And uh it's inspiring the best in others, and that can be done by anyone, anywhere, anytime. So the story about the toll taker, which I use in the book, is when I was a kid in college, there was a there was a guy at it was at Temple, actually. He was at Ambler campus, Temple University. And uh I went to Dayton, but I would visit my friends there, and I got the know there's guy. Anyway, he was he he became famous uh in his own way. Uh he had they had an article uh in uh about him in the New Yorker magazine. It's a picture of his, he was kind of a goofy dude, his head sticking out of a toll booth, and he's smiling, this goofy smile, and he's holding a little MM in his picture. There's a big picture of him, and it's an article about him. And anyway, to make the story short, he had become kind of renowned at this toll booth, at the bridge that goes from Pennsylvania over to New Jersey at the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Very busy place. Back then there was no air conditioning, everybody had to stop, pay their money, you know, get their change, so lines would be there, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he became somewhat renowned. And the reason being is no matter who was coming through, by the when he's giving the change, he would hand them MMs and say with this real big toothy grin, really genuinely, have a nice day. And it got around to the truckers, particularly, that when he was on on you know the booth, they'd get on there, he's in booth number three, and they would line up. The trucks would line up to come through to get an MM from him. And it got over to the Port Authority about this. People would send in saying, Boy, he cheered my kids up on a hot summer day, and the New Yorker heard about it and wrote a little article on them. And I use that story because it epitomizes this notion of leadership, which is bringing the best out of others. Yes. And in this situation, what is most skillful here is you find a choke point of human suffering. And you wait there and you work at cheering up people at that point or bringing the best out of them. That's what he did. This was a choke point of having to sit on hot summer days in line to pay your taxes. And he would ambush people there with joy, bringing a smile out of them, bringing the best out of them. You take that principle and you bring it into large organizations and you apply it, you'll find out what happens. You find those points with the customers, with your vendors, with your employees, doesn't matter. Find those points. And you wait and you use that point from a place where you can inspire the best of them, whether it's a smile or a competence or an openness, and you will see that you will create a culture that is decent and good.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

Absolutely. Now, uh if you're willing to uh not miss out before we finish and talking, his name was Musoshi, right? Musashi. And if you can relate Musashi to how you think maybe that would help criminal defendants andor their lawyers, that would be great.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Well, I would recommend everybody to go and read Musashi's history. There's many great books on him. He's he's kind of widely recognized as uh you know uh the greatest samurai that ever lived. And it the his story is wonderful. There's a lot of great books. And uh he I think it's called The Seven Rings. I think he wrote the book The Seven Rings, which is the number one book that uh uh Japanese executives use in in uh for leadership training. Let me just see if that's a bear with me. I want to see if it's called The Seven Rings. Uh it's a book. Just bear with me. You can edit this out. Yeah, the Book of Five Rings. I'm sorry. The Book of Five Rings. It's a classic text. Uh Musashi wrote it. And it's it's an instruction on how to conduct oneself as a warrior. Uh and there are many, many teachings that he has given, so I would encourage your audience to get a hold of it. And also read his story. Don't just read the five rings. Some of it's difficult to understand for for Westerners, but nonetheless. So uh Musashi was uh technically a great samurai. He also uh uh uh founded the swallow the short sword techniques and other things, but nonetheless, he realized that if you get into a fight with uh another really well-trained, technically well-trained samurai, it's a toss-up, not completely, but sufficiently, because you're both well trained with a sword. So, how do you get an edge? How do you get an edge in those types of things? Musashi realized that you have to what is called traditionally be what's called all victorious, meaning you win the battle before you even go in. Yes. And the way he would win the battle before you go in is to win the emotional battle. And uh there's many stories that are that characterize this. But one of them is he would fight, he was a Ronin, meaning a single warrior by himself. He didn't have a samurai master and he wasn't part of a clan, so to speak. And he was pretty famous, but no one, you know, he wasn't he wasn't known well. People don't see him much, but his name was famous. Anyway, he would challenge other samurai to fight. And at the time, if you fought, you fought to the death. So he challenged this one samurai in Kyoto, I think, who was a major city, a big guy, big name guy, famous guy. And he brought a note in and with insulting notes, you know, challenging him. And this famous guy got all upset. He wanted to have a big fight, and he said, no, no, if we're gonna fight, we're gonna fight on an island so that I don't have to put up with all your minions attacking me. But if you don't show up, you're a pussy. It's fine, I have no problem. Excuse me with that language, but you know, he just he teased him. So this guy's getting upset, and you know, he doesn't want to lose face in front of everybody. He says, That's fine, so I'll meet you at the island. So there's a little popping ceremony to get a circumstance to get him to the island in a boat. He's in his rocets, he's all ready to fight, he has his few guys there ready. Oh, and Musashi's late. Mus showing up, which is an insult. Like, what the hell? Musashi knows he's already won. He's got the edge. This guy's blinded by his own arrogance and his anger. So what he does is he shows up at the wrong place on the island. Well, he doesn't come from where he's expected. He's coming from a different area at the and had a hot uh was on a hill. He had the advantage in terms of uh terrain. So this guy sees him and he takes his sword out and he comes running over, and Lusash. He comes running down the hill and he takes out one of his short knives and throws it. The gravity coming down the hill and the guy running toward it made it very likely, which did indeed happen. It went right through and then killed him. Boom. Because he provoked his anger and his blindness to make him vulnerable to a simple gesture. So the issue here, the Masashi teaching here is often the edge isn't necessarily a technical one. It's also more an emotional win or put puts you in a position where it's likely you're going to win.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

Yes. Yeah. I shouldn't be laughing about killing, but uh aside from the killing part, it reminds me of um what what I'm all about. It's about uh the the courthouse is my playground, and I just have a lot of fun there.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:54

Yeah, good for that. That kind of that playfulness, the creative joy, not joy like, you know, I'm happy that everything's screwed up. Right. But it's a sense of not taking oneself so seriously that one can go into these plays and be fluid, flexible, and appreciative. And appreciative of your opponent, of the situation, rather than intimidated, threatened, and angry.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Right. I do try to draw the line. I I think it was Bill Bradley who said that uh he he would carefully read the uh the rules of playing college basketball, and he found out there was no rule against tugging on the armhair of your opponent. And uh he would drive him crazy like that. But little did he realize when he told that story. I said, I don't know if I want to vote for someone in the presidential primary like that. But uh, but it was well said, it's about having fun, it's about having fun in the battlefield. I think you've given great ideas, Michael, uh, for beating the prosecution, uh, being present, being mindful, uh uh revealing the other person, not getting angry. If anyone's getting angry, let the uh let the other person uh uh do that. Bring out the best in others. For me, it would be to include bring out the best in the judge, the prosecutor, top, the person I'm cross-examining, of course, my client. With that, Michael, uh, we've gone over the hour, and you have blessed me and our audience so much. And this is the time at which I ask you to tell the audience anything you haven't said already that you want to say, and to give your final promotion for your yourself, your books, your company.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

Well, the only you guys can find me global coaching alliance, blah, blah, blah. I think the thing that I would leave is going to sound trite. But what I would suggest is to learn how to be kind wherever you go. And that has one embodies kindness through gentleness. Uh, not weak gentleness. I'm not talking about mushiness, I'm talking about a deep appreciation of this world. This is very, very rare what's going on being human. Just take a look at how big this universe is. There's not a lot of human beings floating around here. This is a very rare experience to be awake as a human being, and it requires kindness. So, wherever you can, be kind.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

Excellent. Michael Carroll, thank you so much for joining us. Wow, wow, wow. That energy that I have gotten from this talk is gonna carry on for days and days at the very minimum. Thank you. Everybody, you have heard from Michael Carroll, a great man, a great teacher. He's got his books, including A Wake at Work. Uh, this is John Katz. I'm a criminal defense in DUI Defense, Laura in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. This is Beat the Prosecution, because that's the only way to go. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.