SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I tell it to you repeatedly, I'm telling you again, I'm having a lot of trouble controlling my excitement over today's guest. This is Freddie Sisson, S-I-S-O-N. First full name is F-R-E-D-I-L-Y-N. She's a lawyer in North Carolina. We've known each other for years. We both attended the Trial Horas College in Wyoming before things imploded there. And uh there was the schism. Freddie is my third uh guest who attended the Trial Horas College. We started off with Don Clarkson and Chris Floor as our first interviewees uh uh for this podcast. Well, that's two, and then we had the great uh criminal defense law and public defender, Laura in Virginia, uh Shalad Ben Avraham with his uh co uh lawyer uh Sean Stout. And now we have Freddie, and a teaser is two weeks from now. We're gonna have Rosa Eliades, uh, who's also a Charlor's college grad who's done Montanamo defense, etc. With that, Freddie, please introduce yourself. Please include your URL. How do we spell your nickname, Freddie? And we'll take it from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Oh goodness, I don't have all that fancy stuff, John. I mean, I could tell you my um email address is my complete name, F-R-E-D-I-L-Y-N-S-I-S-O-N at outlook.com. So that's where you'll get me. I don't have a website, and part of that is I'm trying to keep my practice really small. I'm only taking appointments. Um, I've had requests from clients, I should say former clients and friends that they either meet unfortunately at the jail or you know, other family members asked me to take on cases, but I'm only interested in in appointments. Um, I think one of the things that that that's just hard is if I didn't take just appointments, I'll be really struggling about people who can't pay. I mean, that that's obviously that's why I'm only interested in indigent defense. Um, and so I don't want money to be an issue, and I'm probably very bad at collecting money. So that's probably part of the reason.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Well, that uh fully is uh consistent with the Freddie I know. Now, where is it that you're in California, uh not North Carolina? Um what what brought you to law school into doing criminal defense and and to being a federal public defender ultimately and to where you are now?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Well, I I mean I I I can't tell you that I'm one of these people who said, Oh, I always wanted to be a lawyer. That that would not be true. I mean, it was basically uh, I think a place that I landed. Um, you know, your last few years in college, people trying to figure out what they want to do. I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And luckily I was with a group of people who were pre-law and um talked about taking the ALSAT. So I took that. And then I ended up going to a school. And fortunately for me, I went to a school that had a great deal of clinical programs. I know now a lot of schools have clinical programs, that's not unusual, but back then um I specifically picked um NYU because they had such wonderful programs. And for me, the most interesting courses held uh dealt with criminal law or um constitutional law. And so I just kind of went into that that that um path, uh, although the first few years I needed to pay off uh student loans, so I I worked for firms and I'm glad for the experience because um you know you you learn a different kind of law, you learn a different kind of hierarchy, and it made me realize that that really wasn't the path that I wanted to take. And so I knew that criminal was the perfect path for me. And unlike most people, I've actually seen it from both sides, having worked on both sides of the fence. Uh, but really where my heart was was being a public defender. And so uh the jobs that I've held have mainly been in the public realm. Um I was a state PD in uh Minnesota, and I really love being a state PD, although, as you probably know, the number of cases that a state PD gets is is you know horrendous. Um overwhelming. Yeah, I mean you barely have time for um you know to look at clients the way you want to. Uh I I remember having hundreds of cases and thinking, oh my gosh, how am I ever going to know these people? Um, you know, you just go from one thing to another. But there were parts of it that I I really did enjoy. I mean, I I like the, you know, the fast paced, you could resolve something fairly quickly because uh the prosecutors had the same issues that you did, which is a ton of cases. And so I think in many ways we were able to work things out much better. Uh but my wish was I I wanted a situation where I didn't have as many cases, and also I wanted the resources and um the federal field is where you're gonna find that. So I applied and got a job at the uh federal defender's office. I started off in uh Omaha, Nebraska, and then moved on to Idaho, then to um Nevada, and finally landed in uh western uh part of North Carolina. And so I've done federal defense for almost uh 30 years, and that's really uh where I I love what I was doing, although it was really hard. I I I thought, you know, oh, this is gonna be easy when you only have 50 or more cases, it's not gonna be that tough. But I think what I found that was really hard was just uh the way people were sentenced. Um it's amazing to me that um the sentences are so long uh for crimes that I was able to compare it to the state. And when you're in the state and you know you can get probation for something where, as in federal court, you're gonna get a mandatory minimum. And I could never figure out what made uh the crimes committed in federal court much worse than the crimes that were committed in state court. And I could politics. Yeah, yeah, politics.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

I mean, that goes on in the capital, in the federal capital.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Right. Well, I mean, as you know, in the past couple months, you've had all sorts of um uh different outcomes that if you told me this is what was going to happen, I would have been, oh no, that's crazy. I mean, it started off well with lots of people getting uh pardoned under Biden. Um, and so you know, when you're looking at the list of all these people that were able to start their lives again because their sentences were commuted, um, you know, that was kind of a bright light. Um, and then at the same time, yeah, I have friends that work in pardons, and and from what they told me that they really take time to consider who's going to get out sooner. Um, and I even started uh on a pardon process for um a different client. And it's hard. I mean, you have to get all this paperwork and you have to justify the release. And apparently, you know, I'm sure that the people that were pardoned under Biden, I I I'm assuming they probably have to put in um that kind of work. Um, but when you see what happened uh, you know, the first the first day or so of this new administration, uh, you wondered what happened there.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Um you touched on a lot of stuff that I want to uh visit in more detail, but I want to go back chronologically and see if you were going to law school perhaps after I left uh Wall Street, because I was on Wall Street from 85 to 86 before starting law school, and that was a hoot and a half. Uh when did you graduate from NYU?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Oh, I graduated in '88, so I might have seen you because I've taken lots of walks towards Wall Street. I mean, that was one of the things at law school that you know, because because there were there were times where I thought, do I really want to do this? Because, you know, law school has nothing to do with practice. Yes. Um, I hate to disappoint people that are in law school who um, you know, love it and think it's going to be like this. I think for some people, maybe, right? If you if you want to um go into certain fields, it's exactly like that. But I I really miss um not dealing with people. Um and so the the great thing about the clinics are that you are dealing with people, you are getting to know their stories, how they ended up at this place, and you were trying to find solutions for them. Uh, and so that's the part that you know kept me coming back. I mean, I was fortunate to participate in a consumer protection clinic. So that was helping people who were scanned. And so that was on the governmental side. And then um, my third year in law school, I was in the criminal law clinic, and so we were uh representing people that were charged with um uh misdemeanors in federal court as well as uh providing defense for battered women. Yeah, so that part really, you know, lit me up and said this is what I want to do. Uh at the same time, I I had to pay off all my loans. So unfortunately, you know, you take a detour, but I think those detours are good because you end up where you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Right. Well, you know, speaking of the people, uh one of the great things about me uh working during the year before uh law school uh was I met some fascinating people uh at that Wall Street Bank. It was uh one of the 30 largest in the nation, called the Irving Trust Company at that time. And a bunch of the people I was uh who were in the areas that I was auditing, I was an internal financial examiner. These are people who would never go into college. And yet they were able to get these jobs at uh this bank doing uh I guess bookkeeping kind of work and other data work. And I really met a a wide-cross section of people. I didn't want to go right into graduate school. Did you go right into graduate school from college?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Oh, if I didn't go, John, that would have been a permanent detour. Um, I one of my one of my roommates in law school had taken time off and become a paralegal at one of the uh larger law firms in um Boston. And she said to me, I wanted to see what it was like, and that's the it convinced me that I wanted to go to law school. And I said to her, hey, if I hadn't just gone straight through, there was no way I was ever gonna come back to anything else. So I did not take that.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

So a month or two. Yes, a month or two after you graduated from law school, I was a summer associate at what would have been called a small corporate law firm in DC because they had 25 lawyers and they were focusing on representing um financial institutions and transportation companies. So I got civil litigation experience there. And this man named Jerry Spence was the keynote speaker at the summer associates dinner, who of course was the uh co-founder of the trial lawyers college we attended at his ranster in beautiful western Wyoming. And uh he kept talking to everyone. Well, um, I heard the uh people who um organize this dinner saying, We hope you come back and practice in DC. I'm here to upset them and tell you I don't want you to come back to DC. I want you to fan out across the country, especially the places where the people are underserved underserved and uh and serve people. And uh I stood up to ask him a question, which apparently he didn't hear, so I went up to him and asked him. He talked about how he was against the death penalty, but still he sought the death penalty as a uh uh what would he what do you call it? I guess a retained prosecutor. And when I asked him uh, you know, why there was that dichotomy, he said, Well, you can find the answer to that in my book, Gunning for Justice. Well, I I read Gunning for Justice, I wasn't satisfied with the answer, but nonetheless, seven years later, was I I went in 1995. So seven years later, I did go to the trial or his college, and I give Jerry a lot of credit. He was there almost every day, Monday through Friday, when I went there for four weeks. But my main motivator for going was not Jerry, as much as I learned from him there, but it was the yin to his yang or the yang to his yin, which was Steve Wrench. And uh one day I'll find out where Steve Wrench's address is, he's kind of fallen off the map, but but he was where where Jerry's all charismatic, Steve actually says there's actually a method, just like Larry Posner says in some ways, there's a method to be great and get uh and get great results. But then again, Steve looks so unassuming when you first see him. Uh, and then when he opens his mouth, he turns into a powerhouse. What year did you graduate from the trial or as college or attend there?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I was in the first year that they reduced it to three weeks so more people would go. And I was actually um was that I I don't know if they had two uh two that year, but it it was in 2000, 2000. And I actually, you know, my the first time I met Jerry was when he was teaching at the Western Um Trial Lawyers Advocacy. I I don't even know if that's and and that had all the people that I think you know he kept referring to during um our our lectures in in the barn, like you know, Steve Branch so I've met him there, uh also Bob Rose, you know, all these wonderful people that I keep thinking were the brainchild. Um they they had the trial lawyers college as the brainchild. I mean, I did not go till much later on because there's no way I could do the four weeks. I mean, that's amazing to me. I'd have to like quit a job, go to the college, and then get another job in order to do that. But yeah, that's amazing. I mean, that was I I I agree with you. I think I went just because I I wanted to learn more because part of the problem when you when you start practicing, that's really where you're learning. And unfortunately, um, you know, law school didn't teach us a lot about how to be lawyers. I mean, they taught us how to research, they taught us how to, you know, think and figure out cases and and to some extent problem solve. But I think one of the things that, or several of the things that they're missing is one, how do you do this job? Yeah, whether or not, you know, you want to be a trial lawyer, whether or not you want to be general counsel, whether or not you want to be any of these things. I mean, basically they said, okay, there's there's like a whole buffet for you, choose. And there's a partner that says, well, I I don't know. I mean, should I have this part of the buffet or that part of the buffet? And I don't know if things have changed, but one of the things that I wish they do teach is how do you establish your own law firm? And I'm talking, you know, solo practice or you know, you and a partner or or a smaller firm like 25 people, because I I think for me, I basically went the route of the law firms. I mean, it was either the law firms or go into the government. And you know, having done this for so long, that those aren't the only choices. And I I do wonder what it's like to maybe have started, like you know, you did. You went to the law firm, but then you started your own practice uh much early in your career than you know, me, towards the tail end of my career.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

That was after I was a public defender lawyer for five years a state, public defender lawyer, and then I was uh uh for two years with a civil litigation law firm doing a lot bunch of personal uh uh plaintiff's personal injury practice, and my former law partner, ten years, Jay Marks, who is just as capitalist as I, we joined forces together and we made it work for ten years, and after ten years I've been on my own. Um what really made me want to um have you on uh to talk to you about is um you do a lot of teaching, my understanding is. I don't know if you're still involved with the uh the three sisters or whatever you called it. You have this book called Trial and Action about Psychodrama. Can you talk about that? About the teaching you've been doing, have done in the past, or still doing. Are you still involved with helping women and uh women lawyers uh empower themselves and doing any women-only retreats or something similar to that uh for law and anything else you're doing about teaching?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Well, um, unfortunately, we're not doing any seminars with the three sisters. Uh the two of the sisters are are basically retired. And um, I'd love to do another one. And every time we get together, I always say, oh, we should do this. I think part of the problem with starting another one is uh just just organizing everything. I think if somebody had organized it and said, hey, you know, we'll provide the place for you and you know, figure out the logistics of it, can you get people to teach? And it could be like, you know, let's just serve public defenders or let's serve women or let's serve young lawyers or or whatever it is. I mean, whatever group that you want to do, I definitely would love to do that. But I did not enjoy the putting together part. When I talk about that, I'm just talking about the financial aspects of it. I don't mind putting the program together, I don't mind putting um getting the CLE credits, all that stuff coming up with uh the program itself, but I didn't like, you know, trying to book a hotel and uh just working something out with uh whoever it is that you know makes those decisions. But I've done a lot of teaching. I I actually am very active with the defender services organization. So I do a lot of teaching for federal defenders and uh CJA panel attorneys. Um, for the longest time when I was in the office, um taught at baby defenders, which I always loved because I thought that they you learned a lot. Um, you know, because as a federal defender, you don't just always come in as a brand new attorney. In fact, for the longest time, in order to become an assistant federal defender, you have to have a lot of years in practice. I mean, when I applied, you had to have at least five years. Um, I don't think that's the case now, and I know some places you don't have to have uh that much practice, but I I enjoy teaching, do a lot of sentencing advocacy, uh the bail reform act, uh, trial advocacy. And I'm also on the faculty of uh the National Criminal Defense College, or we uh we call it TPI now. Um, and so I I do a lot of that um thinking, but I should say this, although it'll force me to do it, thinking of either updating or maybe writing another book on uh um trial in action, adding some things, but I I keep saying that and then I get really busy with work and then I can't do it. I mean part of the reason, you know, I went out on my own is I'm thinking, oh, you know, now I could say uh I could take a fewer cases and um work on this book. And I it just didn't work out that way because when you're working by yourself, you do everything by yourself, and that takes more time than if you had other people. But yeah, I I do love teaching and I do love um, you know, trying to inject psychodrama in what we do, although I don't call it psychodrama because that term seems to scare people who are not familiar with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

But I thought I thought the best thing we got out of um the trial lawyers college was psychodrama, and uh that's where I learned it. And so to the extent that um, you know, I have a great deal of gratitude for the trial lawyers college, it's because I one, you know, it got me involved in psychodrama to the point where I've gotten certification for it, uh, as well as, you know, meeting some of the greatest people. I mean, you know, some of my best friends are from my experience with uh the college. Um yeah, I mean, you know, I you're never gonna meet a lot of these people, especially people in in civil practice. Um, when I went, there were so few of us criminal people. I mean, so few. I think it was me and maybe another person who were public defenders, and the rest either had like a mix or were in 100% civil practice. Uh, but but as far as teaching, I love it. I mean, you know, people say, well, why don't you become a professor? And I thought, well, yeah, I don't know. I miss the practice aspect of it. So we'll see. I mean, John, everything's open. Uh hopefully somebody will hear this and say, I'm gonna call Freddie, I'm gonna take her up on this and you know, do the logistics, and then she's got to put the program together. And I'll say, All right, you're on.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

That might happen. And now, all right, so we're gonna talk about psychodrama. And um for the one of our April uh 2024 episodes, we we had Don Clarkson, one of the deans of psychodrama with Christopher Flor on there, a great criminal defense lawyer in Maryland. Is trial in action the only book you've been on? Not that that's uh measly thing. Uh to-do a book, I'm sure that was quite a to-do.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Well, I I I've written chapters, I'm not sure you could even call it, but um when I was in the Federal Defenders of Eastern Washington, Idaho, we did a practice book on how to uh take cases and and basically work them out. I can't remember what section I I did, but I wrote a chapter in that. I've written a chapter in defending federal cases, you know, the book that comes out from San Diego. Um now I think it's mainly the people in the office that write the chapters, but I've done a couple chapters for them. And then I Did um a a chapter in um and I can't even remember the name of the book, but it was it's basically uh criminal and uh um and defending different cultures. Um and I feel bad, like I don't even remember that's different cultures.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Remember this. Different cultures. Uh you have a Filipino background and are you active at all in any uh Filipino communities or activities?

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Well, unfortunately, I'm in Western North Carolina, so if I see any Filipino, it's like, wow. I mean, one of my one of my friends that I I see, um, you know, she she and I are in book club together. I I tell her that she's the only Filipino that I know, but I know that's not true. I met somebody who actually works, I believe, at Bunkham County, but there's not enough of a group in here that I could say that. Um, so I'm I'm I'm kind of distant from from all of that, sadly. Um, but you know, you meet other people and and you work on other cultures. I mean, I do that more in terms of my work as a as a uh a lawyer, also uh as a teacher. I mean, that that that's obviously one of my concerns. And, you know, the changes that are happening right now are um of concern to me because you know, people say, well, why do we need to worry about you know having diversity? And why do I even have to answer that? Diversity is a wonderful thing, and diversity comes in so many different colors, but if you don't um try to learn more about other cultures on your own, I mean, another way of learning is meeting people of other cultures. And so if you have a situation where you never meet anybody but people just like you, I mean, I think you know that leads itself to a really narrow life.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

So Jimmy Carter, I think, said that he appointed more women to the bench during his uh one-term presidency than all the presidents combined before. And even though we have a high percentage of women uh graduated from law schools, I guess sometimes uh the majority of some law schools, of course, there's still the discrimination that goes on. So can you tell us uh what your involvement was with the uh whatever you call the Three Sisters and anything else to help empower women lawyers? And please tell us a little more about trial and action. I'm not sure if it's only uh available, used and not new anymore on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Oh, well, you can get it. I think brand new from trial guides. Uh that was the original publisher. And so I'm sure you can get it from there. I don't know if they created a paper-backed uh version, but certainly from that. Um you know, I think part of it were uh people approaching us and saying, you know, it's nice being in this in this section. And I'm talking about like a small session where you're teaching with other people, but I've noticed it that a lot of times that the women in that group, and we can have a group as small as eight people or you know, 16 people, where the women didn't say anything or they'd say something, but then somebody else would interrupt. And uh the three sisters, we always thought it would be nice to have a uh just a seminar that would allow women to talk about uh things that uh impact them, uh, and also be able to practice um you know skills without having to worry about somebody interrupting. And so I know uh Defender Services did have uh uh I think it was one or two um weekend sessions where they they had women come in, but it was very different from what we did because I think anything that the Three Sisters did was really different from I would say mainstream um CLE programs because we did infuse a lot of it with psychodrama, and to the extent that I have uh background in improv, I put that in too. So it was much more um you know, hands-on, creative, uh, experiential. I mean, you actually had to do something. You couldn't just sit back and take notes.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Um, you know, you try to encourage people and and to see what their skills are, what what we can get out of them that they, you know, probably have never done before, and to like you said, empower them and make them feel like they're part of a team, um, to be able to go out on their own and to do things on their own that they don't have to rely on other people. Because I I think even today, I mean it's funny because as you said, there's much more women coming out of um law schools now than that there are men, but I I'm not quite sure what they're doing. I see a lot more public defenders. Um, but even when I go to court, so for example, I was in state court last week on calendar call, and there were a lot of women on the um state prosecution side, but not a lot of women on a defense side. And I thought that was very strange. Yeah. Uh even on our panel in in our division in Asheville, I want to say that there's probably, and I'll probably get this wrong, and I apologize for that. I think there might only be three women in the CDA panel. Wow. And and you know, I think we have another 20 and they're all men. And you wonder why that is. And and I talk to women. I I had lunch with a friend of mine uh who was a state PD. She's now on her own. And you know, she one of the things she said to me, she said it's very frightening to be in federal court. I said it it's not any more frightening to than in any court. And so, you know, people women are not pushed um towards practice. Um, and so hopefully, you know, just being out there and and pushing women, that would be a good thing. Um, so you know, I I'm kind of sad we don't. I mean, now that I'm talking to you, John, I'm thinking, oh, we really should have like a women's boot camp. When can we do this? Uh so you you're like higher again.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

You might spur this. I mean, the link to this is gonna go to the uh Charlores College uh listserv and to the Facebook page, for instance. I want to mention to you, uh uh Freddie, one of the things that helps me the most in uh dealing with even the most otherwise frightening of aspects is to uh apply the lessons of Tai Chi Chuan, mindfulness, and uh non-attachment, non-duality, whether that's from the Buddhist tradition, Hindu tradition or not. And Tai Chi helps me tremendously on that because um otherwise uh I could have felt unnerved uh before starting Tai Chi Chuan about how much more prepared and capable my opponent was. But then Ben Lowe, who is one of the greatest Tai Chi Chuan teachers alive, he taught uh two of my teachers. He died a few years ago. He said, you actually need to fight from the position of zero. Uh so instead of using 50 pounds of force against 51 pounds of force against someone who has 50 pounds of force and then have an increase of 100 one pounds of force on your new opponent's 100 pounds of force, you're at zero. You're just using their own, you're using their energy, and you're using no no more than four ounces of of uh uh of of energy to push the other person. And so when it turned out that one of the greatest Tai Chi practitioners in the area was pushing with me this past summer after I stayed away from uh push hands for four years, uh concerned about what I'm gonna catch after COVID was around. Uh I said to this man, Steve, I said, just give me a moment to regroup. He said, There's no regrouping. He said, your opponent's not gonna wait for your you to group regroup. Just like I say to criminal defendants, the longer you wait to get a uh to get yourself a defense lawyer, you're just giving uh the cops and prosecutors more time to prepare the case. Come to court uh after doing a weekend of pushing hands, sparring practice. Uh I'm just I I'm I just feel all the more invigorated and powerful in court. And it drives so many of the prosecutors crazy that uh they can't find my buttons to push off. And and if they find the buttons, they don't know how to push them. And uh so that that just helps tremendously. Now you're talking about improv and psychodrama. So anyone who listens to the uh the episode with Don Clarkson and Chris know what psychodrama is, which includes, and you can put your own uh uh synopsis spin on it, you know, role-playing, reverse role-playing uh scenery enactment. But now you're talking about the improv too. Now, of course, improv includes uh would include um spontaneity, which is so important uh to psychodrama. And also, I mean, I I learned jazz trumpet, which was great, you know, decades ago, which is spontaneity. So please tell us about how you use the uh psychodrama uh along with the improv and any of your other uh tra Laura skills.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Well, I I mean, one of the things that I remember when I I first started studying psychodrama and how it felt so hard. And and that's funny because people say, Oh, it's so easy, I've seen him do it and I could do it. And I was the opposite. I said, it looks easy, but I bet you it's really hard. And it is hard. Um, I don't care what anybody says anytime you you do a session. And and obviously I'm certified, but I'm only certified as a lawyer. I'm not certified as a therapist, I don't have a therapist background. But the most important thing about psychodrama is one, you know, being there in the moment. That that's the biggest thing because you have to pay attention to what's going on. Um, and also, you know, listening, that that's a great skill for everybody, but particularly lawyers, because one of the things that, you know, we always worked on when we were at the college is our listening skills. Uh, because we don't we lawyers don't tend to listen, they turn to just kind of direct, you know, like, hey, I've heard that before, and and that's not right. Um, the other thing is, you know, listening to a person's story and getting the real story. Um, and so for for me, psychodrama was all that, and then you can do the reenactments, you could figure out what the motivations are. I mean, all those things are really important. And to the extent that um we use it as therapy, I think when somebody tells you the story, their story, and you actually hear it, and as lawyers, we're able to communicate what that story is, that's the catharsis for for everybody. Um, and then the improv part of it that I really got interested in, and that's that's thanks to Carl Um Benger, is that he I can't remember why he started doing it, but I remember how much he enjoyed it. And I said, well, I want some of that because that looks like fun. And so improv is yet another thing that's really scary. I mean, even though we're basically on the stage all the time in the courtroom, it's a different kind of stage. And the thing that I like about psych, uh, I'm sorry, um, improv is they have uh rules that if you follow the rules, you can really get good at it. So, you know, say yes. Um don't ever, you know, know everything. And and so that's like listening to a client, you know, everything that they said, affirm and then add to it. Uh, and also being spontaneous and looking for the story, what's a scene about. And so those are all the things that I love. And and I think pushing yourself to do something that is very scary to you is one of the things that you know you have to do because if you think of trial, all of that is scary. Okay. I mean, trial is is you know, juggling a lot of balls. People say, yeah, but you're working on it, you worked up your case, you you come up with your theory, but you and I both know that we could do all of that, and then you go to trial and you know, everything you planned goes out the door, right? I mean, it's it's not like everybody says, Well, how can it go out the door? You planned it. Well, you planned your end of it, you don't know what the prosecutor is gonna do, you don't know what the judge is gonna rule, and you're looking at jury, which you know, you met those people that morning, and then you've got 12 of them, and they're gonna decide the case. And so I think the the great things about you know improv is it really lets you, you know, be prepared for the thing that's gonna just just be thrown at you and to to deal with it in that moment. Uh and so I always thought, well, if I could do improv in front of a bunch of people, and you know, you have performing performances, you could certainly try a case easily.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Well, is this just improv comedy or or a wider definition of improv? Pardon me? Is this just improv improvisational comedy or or something? Well, it can be both.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

I mean, there's short form, which like my favorite is short form, although I really use long form because that's a storytelling aspect of it. I mean, short form is a lot of games, and part of the reason I love um short form improv is the games are fun. Um, if you ever go to a performance, most of the time it's going to be short form and it's just it's just a bunch of laughs, um, or hopefully it's a bunch of laughs. And people have so much fun on the stage. And I thought, wow, you know, even though what we do is really hard, there should be a part of it that we enjoy. And I'm not talking about winning because, you know, if that's what you enjoy, then you can't be a criminal defense lawyer because you have to redefine what you know winning is, what enjoyment is. And so for me as a criminal defense lawyer, the part that I enjoy the most is getting to know the people that are involved. I mean, I think I think my best cases have not been the trials, but the sentencings, because let's face it, I mean, you know, in in in in um federal court, that's what you're doing most of the time. And there is that win. There is that win when you get to tell your client's complete story and then you convince hopefully the judge and the prosecutor. So instead of that harsh sentence that that person's gonna get, they get to go home. Um, you know, I I had a really difficult sentencing um in December, and I had worked hard on that case. I mean, you know, it just it just it took up a hundred percent of my energy. Uh, and we got the outcome that we wanted. And when I say we got the outcome that we wanted, that man got to go home to to be with his little girl that night with his wife and and family. And so to me, that's a big win. That felt as good as hearing the words not guilty.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

You know, you change a person's life.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Well, isn't isn't the criminal defense work like uh like from the wide world of sports, the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat? And like you say, we have to sometimes define what victory is.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

But John, you have to redefine what defeat is, and you have to redefine what winning is. And I think when you are able to do that, then you win a lot of times. I mean, you know, you've seen cases where you're gonna have a difficult time winning. And so what is winning? Is it having told your client's story? And you know, maybe you don't win, but at least they got what they wanted, which is I just want you to one, tell my story and two, fight for me. If they see that and you get the guilty verdict, then it's some form of winning. I mean, it's not a great form of winning, but it's still a form of winning. Uh, to me, it's not defeat. Defeat is if you don't pay attention to your clients, you don't visit your clients, you don't see your client, you don't try your very best. Because, you know, it's it's it really is stacked against our clients. I mean, I do believe that. I mean, I hear from the other side where, you know, um police and prosecutors say that our clients have so many uh rights and that, you know, we're protecting criminals versus then the public or the victims. And, you know, I I can't tell you that's a case. And people don't understand that's not the case until they become the defendant or their family member becomes a defendant. Then all of a sudden it's a whole new ball game, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Okay, well, I don't know about you, but I can still say there's nothing more invigorating than hearing not guilty from a jury for me.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

No, believe me, I love hearing those words. Except uh, except I I mean, I'm sure you've kept the verdict sheets. I don't know if they do that in state court, but in federal court, I was cleaning out um, you know, I got uh, you know, uh a bunch of verdict sheets. And I'm like, oh, I really, really want to keep this. And I've kept it, although I put it in a box somewhere now, I won't find it for another 10 years. But yeah, I mean, I I absolutely think that. I mean, I had a split verdict um in in when was it, June last year? And you know, that high from getting that not guilty, although people kept telling me it's a technicality. I'm like, hey, listen, a win's a win's a win, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Um here's where I'm gonna give a hat tip to Jerry Spence. Now, you can say what you want or don't want about the schism of the trial or his college, but I think even a lot of people who uh didn't stay in his camp uh realize how great a lawyer he is. And the idea that he could have rested on his laurels with his record. Well, one of the reasons why he had a record of having so uh few if any uh criminal defeats was because he didn't do drug cases, but he actually took on Jeffrey Figer's case, and that didn't seem like Jewin. And one of the most impressive things I heard about that one was well, he was in a courtroom where he was allowed to go away from the podium. And so I guess one morning he goes right up to the rail uh of the jury. Did you know this story? And he and he sweeps his hand right along the rail, and all I'm imagining is what he's doing in that action, and he's walking along the rail too, is he's eliminating the barrier uh of the rail, the jury rail between him and the jury. He's showing the jury that he's part of them. Uh just just incredible. Where where did he get that from? I don't know necessarily that he got that from anyone else. And um because, you know, I appreciate my teachers so much. I mean, you know, one of my Tai Chi teachers, he was I'm not gonna say his name, but he was convicted uh for being one of the people uh with the insurrection on January 6th, and now he's uh been part. And I didn't bother talking to him at all about that. He's one of my greatest teachers, and I've shown my appreciation for him. So with Jerry, I sent him out a little gift that included uh this magic cup and balls that you might see uh behind me. And uh that was in ear like a several months ago, and sure enough, a few weeks later I get a call after hours. It's Jerry. And uh, you know, I was just transported to the best times I had with him, and we were on the phone for about five minutes, and then the phone rang about five minutes later. He said, John, I don't think I gave you justice to that talk. And we spoke for 10 or 15 minutes longer. And what Jerry represents to me in being a great criminal defense lawyer, I mean, he has shown so much caring to so many of his clients, and he has that um he has that charisma and yet uh one of the people who was teaching at the Charlorus College uh said to me that one day he figured out, oh, so there is actually there is actually a methodology for teaching what just came to him naturally. So can you address that? Uh to what extent Well, I'll before I go to that one, I had a a close uh relative of mine who, when they asked me what I wanted to do with graduate school when I was in college, I said, probably law school. I've been considering business school, but probably law school. And so, what do you want to do uh as a Laura? I said, probably be a trial aura. And he said to me, Well, to be a good trial, you have to be a good actor. And you're not a good actor. I don't know if he saw me try to act. I was maybe in a sixth grade play playing the uh the evil king in Hamlet. Uh but to what extent does a person have to uh have the charisma? To what extent can they learn the methodology? My view is at minimum, the person really has to have the drive, passion, and devotion of their clients, at least when we're representing individuals.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Well, I I I think I I agree with you. I mean, we were both lucky because um when I went to uh TLC, Jerry was in class every day. And I know, you know, as the seasons went by, unfortunately, I don't know if it was his with his health or he had other things going on, uh, that the students there didn't get as much of him as we did. Um, and and so I I think Jerry's magic is that he is able to convey that authenticity that um I think you need. Like, I agree with you. I don't know why people tell us that we have to be great actors, because I think that is about as far away from um being a good lawyer is. Although I will tell you, you know, when you watch the movies and you see like Paul Newman or any of these people, you're like, oh my god, they're great lawyers, right? But they're actors, but how would they be in an actual courtroom setting? Probably not as good. And I do remember that the story uh Jerry told us, and he told us this the first time um I met him at the Western trial advocacy. He said that, you know, you think it's me, but it's not me. In fact, and then he pointed to, you know, peep uh young uh people in the audience. I would rather um, you know, be the opponent of anybody here that's been practicing for years and years versus that young person, because you know, that young person is going to come off as authentic and the jury's really going to like them. And I think one of the things that um the trial lawyers College taught us is to really be who you are. And I'm not talking, you know, everybody says, oh, be yourself in a courtroom. I mean, I think what they really mean is be your best self.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Be your better self. And so that's where the authenticity comes from. That's where the caring comes from. And I think when you really try to get to know your clients and who they are and what, you know, moves them, what makes them tick, the good, the bad, the ugly. I think when you're able to present that and also present the same thing for yourself, that you're not trying to act, you know, you're trying to be spontaneous and you're trying to address whatever the situation calls for. That's really what makes you a good lawyer. And I think all the work with psychodrama, because what makes TLC different is the psychodrama work. And, you know, the the three days leading up to the trial skills part and the what, two, two days at the very end of the three-week course really, I think gelled it for me. And I'm so glad that so many of us did not quit with psychodrama after TLC. In fact, a whole number of us um decided to pursue it, either go to workshops that, you know, John Nolte and Caitlin Larimer did when I was there, and of course, you know, John and um Kathy, uh Don and uh Kathy St. Clair did. Those are really important parts. I mean, I do think you have to work on your own because you have to find out who you are, because that's the only way that you can listen to another person's story and not let you know your problems, your issues project into that person's story. And so that part of it, um, that's how people say, well, why should I go to this college? I mean, you're gonna learn a lot of trial skills if you go to NCDC. I mean, I think looking for trial skills, that course is, you know, and I don't know if you've gotten John.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

You probably I went in 1994, the year before I went to the ranch. They called it make, they called it make it at the time, but the hurricane put us at an airport hotel in Atlanta for two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Right. I I went the year before you, and believe me, I still have nightmares about the rats at the Ramada Inn at Nick. Um now, you know, they kind of move around, and I'm glad about that. Like last year we had it in Fairfax. So maybe this year, uh if I go there, I'll probably see you in person.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

I missed you. I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

We have dinner together. Uh, but I I I think that you know, what TLC provides for people is really just looking at yourself and and and you know, being able to say, this is what I don't like about me, this is probably what people don't like about me, but this is what I do like about me. I mean, if anything, most of the people that I met at the trial or liars college were more the I don't like this, I don't like this, I don't like this. And they really needed to hear what was great about them. And so that's what I love about the college, is because we really did prop ourselves up. I mean, if you think about, you know, the people that you you respect or you like or you spend some time with, they're people from the college, right? Yes. If you needed help, they'd really help you out. Um, I mean, it makes me sad because you know, we had the first uh you know rupture when I was involved in that first. I just called that like, you know, the number one. And then you and then when I heard about all the stuff that happened, I was like, oh, that's the second one. Because you've already gone through the first rupture, and I'm not talking rupture, but rupture, you're like, it was weird to watch it because I oh my gosh, I mean, it was really painful for me, even though I had been away from the college for so many years, because you know, you knew what people were going through and and how hurt everybody is. And and then of course, the first thing I thought of is like, we need a psychodrama session, you know, we need an encounter, you know, where's John Nolte, where's Don Clarkson? I'd love for them to facilitate this. Uh, and it makes me sad. And and so one of but one of the things that came out of that is knowing that the college will go on its own without Jerry, because I know that conversation we kept having, like after when I was uh still on the faculty, what's gonna happen with Jerry? And I always said, well, you know, it Jerry started it, but it doesn't mean that it ends with Jerry. I mean, it can keep going, and I still feel that way. Uh I I mean the things that you learn, and and you know, when you hear about people and their verdicts and how happy their clients are, you know the whole thing is working, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:21

Right, well, right. With the with the trial practice institute, at least when I went, I felt there was a lot of posturing by people there to show how good they were and not to shed uh not to share a lot of their uh concerns and and weakness or perceived weaknesses. Whereas at the trial or as college, if you dared to do that, you would just be knocked down and ostracized. Um I hope you weren't people weren't being ostracized if they felt uncomfortable hugging. I I I went right into the hugging myself. Um and then and then you leave those four weeks and you go back to all these people who've just been going uh about their own lives. Luckily, we have uh still have these groups uh around the country of people who get together who enter the trial laws college in just two days on Saturday. I'm gonna be uh going back to Chris Floor's uh law office in Saverna Park, Maryland, who was on the show with uh Don and uh who does great sessions uh the second Saturday uh morning of each month, uh helping people prepare their cases for trial. And I remember I was so appreciative of a public defender law across the street. I mean, the courthouse is across the street um for something she told me, just a uh a tidbit that was wasn't obvious, uh, but that made a big difference for my client. And I said, I really want to show my appreciation for what you've done for me. I want to tell you about these uh monthly uh trial gatherings. This was her um swatting away at the idea to me, almost as if I had offended her. She said, I've been a public defender long enough, 15 years. I don't have to go to any any more of these programs. Can you imagine that?

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Yeah. I I I mean, the thing is, I I think you just have to keep learning. I I'm always amazed, like especially, you know, people say, well, when you teach, you know, you're supposed to teach, but I I think you learn more from uh the people that you're supposedly teaching or facilitating. I mean, that has always happened to me. I've never walked away from anything where I thought, wow, I, you know, I got so much more than I think the the participants have, even though, you know, they say, oh, that was great, I learned this, but um I don't think you could ever stop learning. I I I mean, I think there's so many things out there, and I just wonder how much I've missed. You know, I just got lucky getting to the college and learning um psychodrama. Uh I I mean it to me, it's a gift that keeps giving. And it's nice to know that so many lawyers um use it and so many lawyers have become certified because they understand how important this is. I wish we had as many people in the therapeutic field that use psychodrama because a lot of people don't. And then when you tell people that, you know, Moreno is a person that started this whole group, you know, therapy, that this going in a circle and talking uh things out, that was him. And they're like, really? Who's this Moray?

SPEAKER_03 51:11

Psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

You say, well, psychodrama, and and the other thing that I think is important, like with psychodrama, that we don't talk about because we put it under the umbrella of psychodrama, is sociometry, which is you know, basically the group formation part, how strongly, you know, your the attractions are between people. And when I say attraction, I'm talking about positive and negative. And that's one of the things that you know you have to look at. That's why, as lawyers, sociometry is just as important because you're looking at the jury, and when you're selecting the jury, you're basically looking for the answers. And one of the things that changed for me is when I select the jury, I look to see whether how they're gonna get along with with each other.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Yeah, you know, one of the questions that I always ask pure sunwolf.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Pardon me?

SPEAKER_03 51:56

That's pure sun wolf. How are they gonna get along with each other?

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Right. Well, I mean, I remember, you know, I when I was a PD, this was before TLC, I that there was a jury and it was like an assault case. It was a mom that had hit her five-year-old child. And I remember, I mean, the jurors all kept were crying. I mean, they acquitted the mom, and you could tell they didn't want to do it, but you know, they were stuck between like, is this a proper way to um uh discipline your child? And I thought, and and I always think back on that case saying, if if I knew psychodrama, how could I tried that case differently? I don't want to say better because you know, if you get an acquittal, can't get any better than that. But uh, is there something I could have done so that when they came out, they weren't all crying? Right, you know?

SPEAKER_03 52:45

So Okay, so you've been talking a lot about psychodrama. So uh what what can you uh tell everyone about psychodrama and pain? And do you wish to uh share any of your own experience with pain and how you work that in with uh solving that for yourself and helping your clients?

SPEAKER_01 53:04

You know, I I mean right now what I was thinking about, because I'm I'm gonna go to trial in a few weeks, and you know, part of the problem with what happens in criminal cases is even though you might have a great case, and a lot of times I'm gonna say you don't have a great case because you know, the federal prosecutors aren't gonna bring something up that they know they're gonna lose, right? Um, is I I think about the pain that a family goes through. Like, you know, because because we get into our little bubble as lawyers, and so this is our case, this is our baby, we take care of it, we feed it, etc. And then you think, oh my gosh, that there's other people involved. And so, you know, I think of my client, I think of the family, I think of all of that, and and and you you you you kind of suck in all their pain. And that's really hard because that does get in the way of of trying the case. Um and you know, this is this what we do is not for the faint of heart. It really is not, right? You know, um, because uh I you probably still think about all the people that I I don't think of the victory so much. Um in fact I kind of forget them, but I think about all the times where, you know, you lose even though you might have given 100% because that's the pain that keeps going. Um, I think this is a really hard job. And, you know, then I'm sure somebody will say, then why do you do it? I'm like, because I love it. And then they think, okay, you're crazy too. But I think we just have that that pain receptacle that we put everything in and then kind of close it, either uh because you know, we we can't deal with it at that moment or we'll deal with it later. And so huh?

SPEAKER_03 54:48

No, I'm listening. I said right, yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Yeah, I I mean, you can't do anything else because I mean part of the work that we do is that you might lose a trial, but there's something else down the park that's that's coming at the speed of light, right? I mean, it's not that you don't want to think about it or you don't want to fix whatever pain you're going through. You just don't have time because you've got another case. Uh I mean, you know, you get that not uh do you get that guilty verdict, and so you may be able to take a night and like, you know, work through that and be sad and cry and do whatever it is that you need to do. But the next day you're gonna be in court doing something else, and you've got to set that aside because you can't bring that into the next case. I mean, hopefully you learn a lot from whatever happened there, but it it stays with you. I mean, that split verdict that I was talking about stays with me. And the sad part is is do you know who gave me the most comfort? My client and the family. Oh, that'll happen. They're the ones that are saying, Are you okay? And you're like, no.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Well, this is where mindfulness practice helps me very much. And uh, you know, it's easier said than done. But when I'm at my best, I'll engage with my client while they're on the roller coaster, but I won't get on the roller coaster with them. It's kind of like that uh TV series Quantum Leap from the 1990s, where the guy who was operating the uh time machine was trying to uh bring the guy who kept uh going from uh time period to time period back to the present. And and the guy who was operating the time machine, he was engaging with the man who was being sent all different times, but he wasn't on that time machine roller coaster. And uh by practicing mindfulness, some of the very achieved people say you can actually get to the point where you witness some mass murder and you will fully engage with uh uh helping helping the victims and hopefully even help to uh to to stop the murder from going on, but where you're still able to not have post-traumatic uh stress disorder from that. And I easier said than done, much easier said than done because we still have to engage because if we're not engaging it, we're just numbing ourselves. And if we're numbing ourselves, we're not making ourselves better people, or we're not helping anybody.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Right. Well, I mean, one one of the things that I, you know, that's hard about trial work is it really is very adversarial. And and one of the things that, you know, I've come to um desire more uh as as I as I've grown as an attorney is I I wish that we did more problem solving instead of just you know butting heads, because to me, there should be a solution to a problem. And the problem is this you have somebody who is alleged to have committed a crime, and then you have people that want to punish him. And so sometimes don't you get the feeling that the punishment is you just basically want to beat them to the ground until they're flat as a pancake. And I'm thinking, well, uh, to me, you have to figure out what the problem is because that's how this person got here. And can we do something? Because putting somebody for uh how many years is not gonna help that person. And I don't necessarily think that um everything requires a jail sentence. Uh obviously, other countries don't do that and they're much much more successful. And you know, when you look at the um uh why people are sentenced, you look at deterrence. And I always laugh at that when whenever I'm in court and they said, Well, I'm gonna sentence you this long sentence because it's got a specific and general deterrent. And and of course I want to say, um, if that's the case, why am I still here? You know, if it's not, you know, general deterrence, we should have any crimes because you're sentencing people to 20, 30, 50 years life, and it's still happening. So that is not a factor that we should be considering. Um, I think, you know, to some extent, when I was a young PD, one of the things that I like is um whenever we had pretrial conferences, we had to go to court and the prosecutor and I would talk, and then then we'd have to talk in front of the judge, and the judge would want to know what's going on here. And people say, well, judges shouldn't get involved. I mean, that's one of the tenets in federal um law. And I keep thinking, boy, we sure got a lot of stuff done when we were in state court, and more people were happy in state court when people got involved.

SPEAKER_03 59:05

The restorative justice movement is making more headway in ways that are good for the defendants, because it's not always good because sometimes there's this uh insistence that to do restorative justice, the defendant has to uh admit to what they did. Um, but in the federal court system, that's gonna have to be totally upended for restorative justice to work there, I think.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Well, and and I think with the federal system, I mean, you have politics involved.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Um, if somebody says, Well, I don't think the guidelines for, you know, fentanyl, I mean, that's that's a new crack now, are harsh enough. And so you know you're gonna get a revision of the uh sentencing guidelines where it's gonna be worse. And instead of thinking, you know, what is the problem here? What's happening?

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

And we're not doing that. And so that part of it is sad. And I know that's not real trial work. I mean, you know, I know here, I think the topic that we came up with is like, how do you win? And so I think it's just been a redefining of win. I mean, I'd love to be out of work and in in terms of um, you know, getting cases, but I certainly would like to be part of the solution. And and the solution isn't always going to trial. Um, I mean, you know, you've seen this in federal court where people that often get the best deals are those that are the most culpable because they know that and they're willing to snitch the most. And then your client who is the lowest level that does not know anything, gets the highest sentence. Or even cases where, you know, you have a murder case and then they get one person to testify, and that's the person that actually shot the gun, right? And they're out in 10 years, and your client's in there for life. And you keep saying to yourself, how does that is not a fair system of justice? That doesn't even make sense. So, you know, we're we're we're playing with with horrible rules.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:57

Um, like you say, uh Freddie, there's different ways of defining uh uh success and victory, and it does extend beyond the courtroom and helping our clients uh with their larger lives. And of course, with uh beating the prosecution in court, uh you hit the nail on the head. We can't do it alone. We have to organize with uh other lawyers who can uh help teach us, and that's why you and I uh uh attended the uh trial practice institute and the trial lawyers college and continue to uh with you teaching and and with me uh getting together with uh my brother and sister lawyers and and getting to yes, getting to that uh-huh. Freddie, uh, I told you we'd be together for an hour. We've gone a little over that. So I wish for this to be the time for you to say anything to the audience that you think needs to be said that you haven't said already. And you know, uh you seem a little modest to me. Promote yourself or re or or remind everyone about where to find your book and uh and anything else that you want them to know about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

No, I mean, I I I just can't do that. It's it's it's like I said, it's why I take appointed cases. I mean, I always feel bad because when people tell me how much that book costs, I'm like, what? It costs that much money. Um, and so you know what I hope is you guys push me to see if there's another book in me that will help trial lawyers. I mean, that's the one thing. And if I get a lot of people emailing me saying, please, all right, if you tell me write another book, tell me what you would like, you know, to know. Um, and not just like, I want to win, again, because the what I will tell you is you have to redefine what winning is. Um, and so the only thing I have to say is like, you know, God bless all of you for doing this work. I mean, it's really, really hard. Uh, and and but but at the same time, who do you want to hang out with? Other criminal defense lawyers, right? You don't want to hang out with other people. Those are the most fun people, they're the best people. Uh, they're the people that, you know, will listen to you uh tell your story and tell your client's story. So, I mean, just just keep up, keep up the good fight. You you pick the right side of the fence, and we're never gonna be rich about this, but I think as far as having like really meaningful lives, this is this is the best path. I mean, I think like what I do is is so important and what you do, obviously, John. Uh, and I hope you do have something on how to start your own practice, since the law schools don't teach it. I think that's a good thing. Well, that then then they have to tell other people how to do it because we should have more uh you know, mom and pop, like little law firms, and really help people in that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:41

Freddie Sisson, thank you so much for joining. You have heard from Fredelyn Sisson, a great criminal defense lawyer in person over in North Carolina. This has been John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. Thank you again, Freddie.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.