SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Northern Virginia, Fairfax. I tell it to you again and again and again. And I guess in the area of Buddhism in Zen, I'm not supposed to get more excited over one person than another, but I am excited over this guest that we have today, Wendy Lau. Wendy Lau is a physician. Maybe I'm calling her right a Zen Buddhist priest. She will let us know that. Much more than that, based in Santa Fe, there with uh Roshi Joan Halifax at the Upaya Zen Center. When I first contacted Wendy a few months ago inviting her on, one of her first responses was, I really don't know if I'm going to be able to add anything. Of course she can. She is uh experienced as an emergency room physician. We criminal defense lawyers in many ways are like emergency room doctors. And more than that, I think she's been over not only to the Himalayas to help out people in need of uh uh medical treatment, but uh perhaps uh putting herself in physical peril even to where she was going. With that, Wendy, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Thank you so much for having me, uh John. Um yeah, you're right. When you first contacted me, I was like, I don't know anything about law, so I'm not sure how you know I would be interesting to a bunch of um criminal defense lawyers. Um, but happy to have a conversation and we'll see where we go from here. Um I'm a Zen priest at uh Upaya Zen Center and a student of Rochi Joan Halifax. And like you said, I'm I'm an emergency medicine physician, but right now I'm not working clinically. But I also teach now um to um physicians and clinicians of all types uh who come to UPaya. We have many programs for clinicians that help with their burnout, you know, we and talk about you know things that they don't get taught um in their medical education that they need. And so it sounds like you know, your podcast is similar to that, you know, filling in the gaps uh of what it needs it takes to do a job like like yours that is so demanding.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

That's right. So uh Wendy, uh, where were you born? When did you come to the United States? What led you what led you to medicine and what led you to the Buddhist path?

SPEAKER_03 2:58

How much time do you have? Um I I was born in Hong Kong. I came over to the States when I was 15. I went to boarding school and just stayed. So my family, most of them are actually in Hong Kong still. Um, but you know, I I just decided that this is you know where I wanted to live live. So here I am. Um I actually uh went to medicine um as a second career. I was uh uh in tech before that, um, and just decided that I really needed work that is meaningful. Um I I think you know about that. Um I you know was sitting behind the computer, you know, programming, making websites, all of that, and then realized that it's just not cutting it. I just really wanted some something for my life that is meaningful and it's helpful to others and will serve. So um went back to medical school. Um, and um and then I realized that you know the medical path is also quite difficult in the sense that um many of us are burnt out because we're not able to serve in the way that we wanted to. And so that's when I really started, you know, my path in my spirituality, uh, exploring that. Um I had a meditation practice for many years. But then I realized that my career is kind of far away from my spiritual path. Um, they were not connected. So one day when I was uh quite burnt out working and after working in the ERO, I was just looking online to just see what's out there. Um and actually that's when I found Roshi Joan. Um she has a program, like I said, we have many programs here for clinicians, but the one I found was the GRACE training, which is a compassion training, um, originally for clinicians, but actually now it's for everyone. Anyone who has a service job, there are actually many lawyers who who take this uh this training that happens. And Grace is an acronym? Yeah, Grace is an acronym. Um it stands for uh G of grace is um gathering your attention. Then R of grace is um recalling your intention, A of grace is attuning to self and then to other. C of grace is considering what will serve, and E of grace is engaging and then ending.

unknown 5:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

So you can just see from that acronym, you know, it's a three-day long, two and a half day long training. We go into each step by exploring it um deeply and um with each other. And so as you practice this uh this process, it becomes faster and faster. So when you're sitting in front of someone, you know, um, you know, a client, or you know, uh you're in the courtroom, or for me, it'll be you know in the clinic or in the ER, I can just go through this um acronym quickly and ground myself. You can imagine you compassion cannot arise when you um don't have your attention here, when your attention is elsewhere, if you're distracted, you're you know, you just not uh paying attention to this moment. So the whole process of grades is about um uh fertilizing the ground so that um compassion can automatically arise in that situation. So if you go through this process, um train in it and and use it while you're interacting with someone, then it really gives the chance for compassion to arise so that you can really listen, you can really um consider what would really serve in that moment rather than going through um a rote kind of uh situ, you know, especially in the clinic, a rote kind of um response. So yeah, that's that's the training.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Well, uh silly me, I rely so much on not using a lot of notes when I uh interview. And then I saw that the notes I printed out actually aren't even for here, but I see that I had written down on my notes, let's start with some quiet time. Are we so far into our talk that it wouldn't make sense for us to uh uh for you to help the audience uh get in touch with themselves and get grounded for a minute or two or more?

SPEAKER_03 7:36

It's up to you, or we could do it at the end. It's up to you.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

End would be great, because then that will bring things up. Okay, um did did you um did you grow up in a Buddhist tradition and uh whether or not you did what brought you to the uh to the Zen part? Was it just uh Roshi Jon? And she's an amazing uh teacher right there. Uh, even the first time I heard her, I was uh I was taken.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Um I was not born into a Buddhist actually, you know, uh not actually a Buddhist tradition. I mean, I was born into a Chinese tradition where you know a lot of the culture comes from Buddhist, you know, culture. Um so I was never taught anything about Buddhism, um, but it uh officially at least. Um and uh my family's atheist, um, but you know, we you know uh respect our our ancestors and we you know go to their grave and all of that, but it's not it's not really uh a um we don't subscribe to any like religions when I was growing up. Um yeah, so I I like I said I I am here because I found Roshi, um, Roshi's work when I was very burnt out as a physician.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Well I'll share with you that uh I will share with you, Wendy, that the first place I ever went to in Asia was Hong Kong. It was in April of 1986. And what happened was I was at the happy hour with the uh Wall Street Bank I was working at during the one-year intercession between college and law school, and uh one of the uh uh vice presidents said to me, uh what did she say? She said, H likes you. That was Raymond Hollish, the senior vice president of our auditing division. And she said, By the way, do you have a passport? So when the next morning, when she dropped by my uh my work carol, uh along with one of the other vice presidents of the uh of the division, I knew it wasn't I wasn't in trouble. I wasn't in trouble. And only do they say, you know, we're starting to do some overseas audits, but when they said that I was chosen for Hong Kong and Japan, I said twist my arm. That would have been the first overseas place I would have chosen. And we stayed at the uh Forama Hotel and we were there for uh three days, and there was that uh that revolving uh restaurant or on top. And I don't know how to pronounce it. On that Saturday, we went to well, I know how to pronounce Stanley Market. Went to Stanley Market and then uh took that boat to how however do you pronounce it? Not not Lantau, but the other uh island off our uh Jungjiao or however you uh pronounce it. There you go. Yeah, that sounds right. And then we flew right out to uh uh we flew right out to Tokyo the the the next day uh the next day on Sunday. But what I what I will tell you, the the thing that affected me the most, it wasn't very positive, was what when we uh that night Saturday after dinner we went to um I forget the name of the tailor store, but it was it was it was one of the tailor shops, and I just arranged to get shirts. I didn't think I was gonna be there long enough to get a suit. And all of a sudden there was commotion between a manager and a tailor. And the uh the manager went like this towards the tailor, you know, like he was really angry. And there was another man there, he took a wire hanger and he started wrapping it on the head, not hard, but still totally dehumanizing, wrapping it on the head of this tailor. And I said to all of the the the uh the man rapping the head him on the head with the uh the the hanger, and the manager said, What on earth are you doing? And the manager said, Don't worry, he's not your tailor. I said, I don't care if he's my tailor or not, he's a human being. And then we flew over to we flew over to Tokyo. Now back to you. What was the response of your parents, your family, your friends, your fellow physicians when uh they found out that you were making this transition from being a full-time physician to doing uh what you're doing with Buddhism?

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Um, well, my family and uh colleagues are very different. I mean, my family was a little confused about how I could let go of, you know, um all my training and and do something completely different. Um my colleagues, many of them um really wanted to find a way to um be able to work in a more healthy way. Um they are all quite burnt out. Many of them are very burnt out, and they um are disillusioned about the medical system here. And so they actually, you know, were happy and wanted to talk to me about, you know, what I'm learning and uh how um how I can you know bring this back to to medicine. And and actually through those conversations was actually how my book came about. Um was uh you know trying to bring this kind of work back to my colleagues. So that's that's the work I'm doing now and and was inspired by these conversations.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

And the name of your book is Practice of Inner Medicine?

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Inner practice of medicine? Yeah, inner practice of medicine.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

And where can people get that? Is it just on Amazon?

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Yeah, on Amazon. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

And uh what URL should people know about? Is it just at the Upaya Zen Center? Do you also have your own web address?

SPEAKER_03 13:16

I do. I just it's just innerpractice.org.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Okay, and what is the uh URL for Upaya Zen Center?

SPEAKER_03 13:24

It's Upaya.org.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Okay, so um sorry to bring on those practicalities. So uh that was answering that question there. Um I don't I haven't figured out yet a uh a good uh synonym for badass because but uh I only say that in in good ways. And I I am interested in knowing, I think you had told me uh that you are were gonna be over uh in the Himalayas maybe just in the last few months. Were you there? And uh was it to a place that was rather treacherous physically to get to?

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Yeah, um I was just in um Nepal in the Himalayas in uh mid-September to early October. Um it's for the Nomads Clinic. And um, this is a project that Roshi started 40 years ago. Uh she was just doing uh pilgrimages to very, very high places, very high altitude places, like Tibet and High Nepal. Um, and she saw that um there were not there was not a lot of care that's given to the people in these high mountains because uh in Nepal the people in the high mountains are mostly Tibetan and they're they don't get a lot of resources. And so there's not really any uh Western um clinics up there back in the day, and now there's still very little. So she started bringing clinicians organically, um, and the clinicians just started doing um clinics or just roadside clinics in the beginning, and she realized that it was actually a great service to the people there and also to the clinicians to be able to serve in this way. So it grew and grew as she was taking care of it. She went uh once a year or twice a year for many, many years. And I joined her in 2016 and then became one of the co-directors in 2017. And um so I went four times before the before the pandemic, and we couldn't go during that time. And so this year was the first time we've gone since 2019, um, and it was the first time that Roshi didn't go. So I brought a slightly smaller team than usual. Um, she would bring 25 people. I only brought 10 people this time, and all clinicians, and pretty much everyone had gone before. And we did clinics and also we did um uh education for the clinicians that are up there. There are some nurses and health aids that work in these tiny, tiny, very uh under-resourced clinics that take care of you know the whole village. And so we did um education uh, you know, uh program for them uh up there. And we also have these wonderful other uh projects, including the women's menstrual kit project. They don't have access to um disposable uh, you know, the ones that uh we see here in the stores, disposable uh menstrual products. And that's not great up there either, because there's not really a good way of disposing um plastic up there. There's no good way to dispose plastic anyway, but definitely not up there. And so um my uh my colleague uh and and good friend Angmo, who is one of the co-directors of the Nomads Clinic, uh, she is uh from that, from the village up there at 13,000 uh feet. And she knows the living conditions there, and she started this project of bringing reusable uh menstrual kits that are made of beautiful cotton. They're made in Kathmandu by women who are trained so that they they learn a skill of sewing and um bring these kits up to the women up there and they love it. Wow. Um and along with giving away the kits, we also do education, like women's health education with them uh as we give the kits away so they learn about this the natural cycle, they learn about you know uh different um aspects of women's health. And in the beginning it was just women coming because it's kind of they're kind of shy. They don't want the men around, and the men are kind of shy. But eventually, um since we've been doing it in the schools up there and involving the young men there, they they listen to um these educational sessions, and then they, you know, it becomes less taboo. And so now uh even uh so now they, you know, the you see like pictures from like when we first started, the women are like hiding the kids, they're like all shy. Now they're like standing proudly with these beautiful kits and they're like so happy. And then, you know, there's still a lot of the leader leadership up there are still, you know, mostly men. So um now it's gotten to the point where uh the youth leaders, like the male youth leaders, are asking us to bring these kits to the women of their villages because they see how how wonderful it has been for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Okay, so well, this is very important work. So I think I I may have told you by email today or yesterday, I know how to say and use a sphigma manometer to do an odometer, what is it, the the uh analog test of blood pressure. But when I realized that I wasn't gonna be going to uh med school, I realized it was important still for me, just out of curiosity and out of practicality, to learn some medical techniques. So in 10th grade and high school, I joined the paramedics club and it was great. And the the biology teacher who was leading it, Mr. Famah, he was fantastic. And we learned to jab people in the fingers with the serra lancet before they had the spring action there that made it less painful. And take out the uh blood on the slide and mash up the blood and check for the hemoglobin count and and and and check the urine for uh uh what was it, uh sugar level, and we learned CPR and and and first grade. So uh David Kramer was quite the jokester. He was uh pre-med already in high school and uh he was one of my test subjects where I was gonna check his hemoglobin and and his urine and uh check his blood pressure and heartbeat. So I went into the men's room, I said, Dave, what's taking so long? He's just laughing. It's okay, just wait a while. So he comes in with his urine and uh I test the urine. He's laughing his head off, and I said, Yeah, the urine's normal. He said, It's not supposed to be normal. I said, Why? He said, That's not urine, that's tea, and we put a bunch of sugar into it. I I guess the uh I guess the test for the urine wasn't meant to check if you put uh table sugar in there. Uh but but nonetheless, the uh learning the medical uh techniques in medicine serves me so well because of course in in criminal defense, if if we have a murder defense, if we have uh drug defense, we have DWI defense, I need to understand the medicine and at least understand enough to know how to talk with our our medical experts and how to cross-examine the uh the opponents. But I don't have you here uh to help me out with my clients in that respect. You have talked about what you uh a little bit about what you do once you reach these villages in remote places, uh, but if I'm not mistaken, I think I did read that at least Roshi Joan did say getting to some of these villages can be very treacherous. And and are any of these treks or are ways over these villages treacherous for you and the other people you're joining with?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah, it's actually quite treacherous because some of these places are at you know 13,000 feet or you know, somewhere around there. But in order to get there, you have to go over passes. The passes are you know somewhere anywhere from like 16 to you know 18,000 feet, and that's really, really high for those of us who don't live up there. So many, you know, you could get um altitude sickness, and that can be dangerous, and it can also make you uh less um able to deal with like the the actual path if you're getting sick. So um, and then the paths themselves are very, very narrow at some places and very rocky. They're just kind of cut out of the side of the mountain. So so yeah, it can be dangerous, and also uh sometimes there's monsoon and the waters are very high in the rivers and we have to cross them and stuff like that. But you know, we try to um be as safe as possible. Possible, of course. And one of the requirements for going is for someone to know that they can handle the altitude and also be very fit. And we all train for it like pretty much year-round. The core team knows and we all train and keep ourselves in good shape, you know, so that we can be of service.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Is there any type of specific uh physical training you do, or is it just just doing general uh generally keeping physically fit?

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Uh being at altitude really helps. Yeah. So I I go up here into the mountains. Um I think last time you came to visit, we were up in the mountains training. Um so that's like 9,500 feet or so. So being having, you know, being acclimatized to that altitude is very important. I mean, some people can't do it, so they'll just go off for like a week or two uh, you know, before the trip to to acclimatize a bit, and that even that helps. So it just really also if you can't do that either, you know, the cardiovascular training is super important.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

I did notice how quickly I acclimated to the uh thinner uh atmosphere, whatever you call it, uh, over when I was at Jerry Spence's ranch when I was at the Trialora's College for the entire month of August of 1995. And the first time I took a run, it was really just for about three or four miles with Bill Trine from Denver. I was just huffing and puffing uh early on. But within about a week, it was just natural. And then there's the opposite effect where someone from Denver told me that when he went for a run in Washington, DC, he almost was hyperventilating because he was getting too much oxygen.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Well, that's unusual. Usually people just have lots of energy when they come down to to a lower altitude.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Well, interesting. Well, I didn't uh I didn't experience that. Uh I read by you, or else there was a talk by you uh about that when you were an emergency room physician, about how you would handle it if you had one patient who passed away and you didn't have more than a few moments before you went to the next patient. And uh that's I think that's harder to handle than a criminal defense lawyer, because I think the worst that a criminal defense lawyer deals with it's akin to that. We uh let's say we lose a murder trial and then we have to start another trial a few days later. At least we get to decompress a little bit about that. So please tell the audience about that. Did I get any of that right? And and uh what would you do in those circumstances and where did you get the inspiration to do that?

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I don't remember talking about that, but I mean it's this is something that I I don't know if it's easier as as criminal defense lawyers. I mean, I think what it's the baseline of it is that we're witnessing suffering. And how do we work through that um in an intentional way uh not to carry that kind of suffering with us or have it affect us so that we can't serve anymore? And I think that's one of those kind of uh topics that are not covered in medical education, and also probably not covered in a lawyer's education. Um and um I think that's where a lot of you know burnout comes from. Um and also, you know, we have a program here called Being with Dying for clinicians. And and and the crux of that is really about facing our own death. So if if we have we're carrying a fear of our own death, a fear of you know um suffering, then when we face that suffering, our you know, it might be more difficult for us to really be there for that person, for compassion to naturally arise, because you know, there's you know unknown fears that we haven't looked at. So that's I think a lot of the work we do with clinicians is to be able to talk about those subjects in a more um direct way, um, talk about our own suffering and our own suffering within the system. And and so through that kind of community, um, you know, talking with each other, like I have a program that's based on my book that it uh happened for the first time this past June, and it was 30 physicians. Um, and it was really eye-opening to have 30 physicians who are from all kinds of different specialties, who are um of all races, who are from um a few uh medical students, residents, all the way up to people who are getting close to retirement. And being able to talk about uh what they're experiencing in the system in a very frank way and be able to talk with each other is something that we don't have normally. Um when you go to work, you don't want to talk about your problems with your colleagues, maybe, and maybe don't want to talk about it with your friends and family who might not be in medicine. But having that safe space, being able to reflect was was um I think very healing for many of us. For me, even though I was teaching and guiding, it was actually very healing for me. So um I think all of those factors, I mean, yes, the individual situations of facing you know someone's death is is a big deal. But all of it together, of of of um witnesses, what witnessing suffering and how do we work through that is I think what's actually important.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

I have never heard, Wendy, of anyone talking about looking forward to being with dying people as much as or or any more than Ram Doss. He he would just look forward to that so much because he said uh that's what uh puts people in the most they're they're in the most genuine state right there. And and he talked about some spiritual leader who was on his deathbed and and his students, I guess, weren't really following the teachings they were supposed to get, just getting all uh upset and sad that he was going to be uh dying, even though they had probably been prepared for this years before. And uh the the teacher said, What what's the problem? I'm just dying, I'm not going anywhere. I'm just leaving my body my body. Uh, do you have any uh thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_03 28:37

I think that is you know ultimately true, but also we're also human and the grief process is real and not to bypass that. Um there's you know that story, but there are also stories about how you know the greatest masters would shed a tear when something is you know tragic is happening or someone is dying that they love. But what's important is how do we you know work through that and process that. So I don't think it's just about saying, oh, it's it's you know, I'm just leaving, so nothing happened. I mean, I I you know, I mean, obviously, I'm sure you have that same experience. If someone is going through a lot, you you know, saying to them that it's nothing is not gonna be very helpful. Because it's real also. It's real and it's not real. It's it's you know, the relative and the absolute. It's not just one of them or the other. We are still human and it's it's still important to look at the grief process when it does happen. So I I speak to um uh my you know physicians' colleagues about disenfranchised grief. Have you heard that term?

SPEAKER_02 29:47

I have not.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Yeah, I mean it's it's basically defined as a kind of grief that is not really um not, I wouldn't say authorized, but like it's not um something that people talk about. So, for example, you know, physicians, when we see someone who's dying, um, we are taught in medical school or taught in residency that you know, these are our patients, we need to be objective, we can't show our emotions, maybe similar to lawyers, that we can't, you know, start trying with the family or you know, or or or act human. But that's not that's not realistic because we are human, right? So if we pretend that we're not and we don't let ourselves feel our grief, it can affect us and make us feel less and less and less. So, you know, so as as as physicians, you know, we're told that the the patients are our patients and we need to uh completely dissociate. Um these family members are not our family members. So we we're not actually really allowed to grieve. They don't actually say that out loud, but it's like, you know, but it's kind of the implied message that we get from medical education. So, how do we actually look at that and and grief the losses that we see and grief the suffering that we see? Um and and so I think that's I think that's very important. I think I I would love for you to speak a little about that because I'm sure you see.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

So that's well said. So here's a contrast, Wendy. Uh so sure, I'm sure when uh when Ron Doss was with his um, I forget if he was with his mother at her last breath when he was, but when he was with his uh father's uh subsequent wife with uh her last breath, I'm sure he felt that. Um and that's when he was already uh very advanced spiritually. With me, I remember when I was a public defender lawyer, I excitedly told uh one of the supervising lawyers said, Hey, isn't this cool? Uh one of my clients has said he's gonna invite me to his uh family's reunion. And uh he never ended up doing that, but that's uh perhaps besides the point. But the supervisor said, No, you have to keep an arm's length. You have to keep an arm's length from your clients. Well, that didn't resonate well with me. So at Jerry Spencer's trial or his college, when it was called that before Jerry kicked the college off his ranch and started his own college. Uh, when I presented um my case that was coming up where I had uh uh convinced a judge to reverse uh a murder uh conviction of a client who had a different lawyer uh at that point, and I convinced the judge that he had ineffective assistance of counsel under the Sixth Amendment and that therefore deserved a uh a new trial. I was giving the opening statement uh that I was perhaps going to give it the retrial. And uh Jerry started talking to me and he said, Um, so what are you gonna do in preparation for this trial in terms of dealing with your client? I said, Well, you know, my client's in uh still in the prison, and I don't think they're gonna let him out uh pending trial. And Jerry said, Well, how about meeting the family? I said, Of course. And he said, How about staying overnight at the family's home?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

And understanding your your client better that way and his family. Absolutely. That's what resonated with me. There were a lot of there were a lot of tears that were shed at the trial or as college as we got in touch with ourselves and each other and heavy amounts of um engagement with ourselves and others, including dealing with psychodrama, which was developed by uh Jacob uh Moreno, and it's about uh role-playing and reverse role-playing. In fact, one of the greatest living psychodramatists, Don Clarkson, was on uh the program uh last April with my friend Christopher Flor, who's a great trawlora, who was at the Shaw Lawers College three years after I. And uh and Chris, every um second Saturday morning of the month uh gathers together uh with um with lawyers and some non-lawyers to do psychodrama, role reenactment, and storytelling. And and I I still get choked up uh at some of those gatherings and beyond where we're just we're just totally getting in touch with ourselves and each other. And I I've I've gotten choked up even sometimes when I get in front of a judge for a sentencing where my client is risking up to years and years in prison. As long as I'll say, you know, judge, this is this is not an easy sentencing for any of us, any of us in the in the courtroom. And if I'm emotional about it, I'll say these aren't false emotions. I don't try to uh exaggerate my emotions, but uh I'm so emotional because with this judge, because I've been spending so much time with my client, and I really feel for him, and I really know that uh the Joey who's here today is much different than the Joey committed this crime uh two years ago. And and I am very much a feeler. And I remember when I started with uh the the public defender's office in a neighboring state when one of the um public defenders who was a former prosecutor said, What made you make this change? And I said, It's where my heart is. He said, Be careful what happens where you wear when you wear your heart on your sleeve. Well, I don't know. I don't know where else to wear my heart.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

I'm curious what happens when you show your emotions in the courtroom. Like how does that how is that received? Is that is that a strange thing?

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Is that like well, that's about being real. And if you're your best real self, you're you're the you're the most uh persuasive. So as an example, I guess it was jury nullification when a jury said my client was not guilty of uh possessing with intent to distribute eight pounds of marijuana in his car's back seat. And I just focused on well, someone sent some marijuana to him, but how do you know what he was receiving? And it was airtight packages. And I remember when uh the prosecutor, who was for a brief period at the public defender's office, my uh uh law clerk, and uh leading into this, this is very interesting. Uh at the time of this trial in 2013, my son, who's now 18, was uh seven years old, and it was uh take your child to work day, and I walk into her office to deal with some other matter not involving my case with her, and my son is on my shoulders, and um he always loved it when I would uh carry him on my shoulders, and she comes out, this prosecutor, and we just start talking about the case, and as she's talking to me, she's talking to me without even acknowledging my son, and she has two sons herself. So I said to myself, okay, well, let's uh figure out how we're gonna work this into the case. So in the closing argument, um, she starts lampooning me to the jury saying, uh, Mr. Katz tried uh bringing out with the cops that uh you didn't that, even though the cops said that when they were talking to the uh defendant uh that in his car, they saw the carotid artery just going, you know, in and out and out. What do you call that? Fluttering, uh what's the medical word for that? When you're all nervous and the carotid's going. Uh so Mr. Katz said, you don't see that in the video, even though the police are talking about it. But but the reason why you don't see it in the video is you see the video of the defendant coming out of the car after the cops say, we'll just process you for the going through the stop sign ticket and let you go on your way. And so, therefore, he was all relaxed. So then I took a page from Wayne Dyer. I don't know if you've met Wayne, I've met him, and I wish you follow him. But Wayne, Wayne had a great saying. He he would say that um you can't squeeze orange juice from an apple, you can't squeeze apple juice from an orange. Uh if someone's smiling, smiling, and if and if someone flips them the bird and they go uh uh ape crazy uh angry, the anger's in them. So I did a reverse of that, and I said to the jurors, uh, you can't just turn the fear on and off. If he was, if my client was so fearful and uncomfortable that his carotid artery was throbbing like anything out of fear, you would have seen that when he got out of the car too. And I gave the example. I said, let's say you wake up in the morning and you're feeling great and you're riding your bicycle bicycle down the roadway, and uh the passenger in a car next to you just flips you the bird. If you get angry, that anger was there. And all of a sudden, one of the jurors, uh, a woman around 60 years old, she's nodding in agreement. I don't know if she knew about Wayne Dyer, if she just knew about this. And uh then the pro the prosecutor started off her opening argument and closing argument, pointing to my client saying, That man over there is a drug dealer, which was hilarious because it was just marijuana and a county where I don't think people care about marijuana. They probably hate tobacco worse because that can cause cancer more. And when the jury came back around two or three, uh about two hours later with the not guilty, uh I just naturally, uh nothing but nature. I just went and I hugged my, I give my client almost a big bear hug. And uh at least one or two of the jurors were just smiling. It's just how we had connected. And I mean, that's that's how I do with my clients. I mean, if I don't if I'm not crazy about my client, I'm not gonna hug them. Uh, but I have a hugging personality, whether I hug or not. I really engage with my clients, I really care about my clients, I spend time with my clients. Uh, I think it really drives some prosecutors and cops crazy. Let them. I mean, I remember uh I had a client who was accused of uh theft from a hotel uh or or misappropriation of funds by not paying his hotel bill when he stayed there for about a week or two. And I said to the cop, I said, So my understanding is when you knocked on my client's hotel room door, uh, you walked right in uh without permission. Isn't that true? He said, That's not true. I said, Well, my client told me that. He said, You're gonna believe that over me, call my client that. I said, My client's not that. He's a human being, we got a good result there. So, yes, I um I I don't uh I'll I'll I'll harmonize my feelings, I'll control my feelings so I can still uh be persuasive, but if if I can't uh a jury and a judge and a prosecutor and a cop when I'm trying to persuade them, they're not going to uh believe my message any more than I believe it. So, I mean, even if my even if I'm convinced that my client uh committed a heinous act, I'm still going to find the humanity of my client. And if I'm not sure if my client did it, I'm going to play up that reasonable doubt argument uh all the better. So, yes, I'm I'm all in there. But by the same token, Wendy, I am a martial arts practitioner. I've been doing the Tai Chichuan martial art for over 30 years, and I'm trained through the best because Chiang Men Chang went from mainland China to Taiwan to avoid the communists. He was friends with uh Madam Cheng. I'll I'll I'll I'll avoid the political commentary on that one. He came over to Manhattan in the 1960s and he started uh teaching any any comers who qualified. He didn't limit them to uh uh to Chinese people. So as a result, his financial backers who were Chinese uh uh kicked him out of his place and somehow he got the funds to still uh teach Tai Chi. So Chiang Man Chang, senior student in Taiwan, Ben Lo came over to San Francisco at uh Chang Man Chang's request by the 1970s, who taught my teacher, Julian Shu, who taught me. And um so I'm not all about uh uh peacefulness for the sake of peacefulness. I believe in uh peacefulness is the ultimate goal, but I do believe in self-defense. And in the Haga Kori, I think it was, uh, there's the story about a man who wants to learn from uh one of the master's swordsmen how to uh how to be a great swordsman, and the sword teacher says to him, uh, I want you to tell me what your strength is, what is your greatest strength about uh uh doing martial arts or fighting or anything else or using a sword. And the potential student uh was having trouble answering, and the uh the swordsman said, Look, if if you can't answer this question, I can't teach you. So the swordsman said, Well, I don't know, is is this something you were thinking of? He I have found a way not to be afraid of death anymore. Do you know the story? And uh the swordsman said, Uh, then I have nothing further to teach you. He said, Because once you're not afraid of death anymore, uh you can handle the sword. So I'm in touch with my feelings, but part of being in touch with my feelings is to know how to strengthen that. So fearlessness is very important. Uh I think that anger, uh it's probably impossible to have anger without having fear. Uh and once I guess it was um uh Tuptin uh Chodron who said that there is a difference between non-duality and uh and non-attachment, but whichever it is, I think that the more that I focus on my well-being internally and uh and and and my sense of everything internally and not reacting to other people, I think that does help put me in better harmony, and I think that does strengthen me better. And I and I am a I have been involved with the contemplative lawyers movement. It's not exactly uh so carefully organized, but I was the uh coordinator of the uh contemplative lawyers group of the DC area from 2012 to 2013, and that was really cool. We'd get together once a month at a restaurant, start off. With uh some meditation for about 10 minutes and then practice. I did go over to the um Garrison Institute uh for about a four-day-long weekend in 2015, and there was uh Soketsu Norman Fisher and Charlie Halpern and some other uh people. And to this day, as you can tell with me being a chatterbox now, a lot of people have trouble believing that I actually enjoyed that everything was silent there except for group discussion and question and answer. I just loved it. And the only thing I did to interrupt that was when uh I called my uh wife and son each night to say goodnight when they had recommended not to use our cell phones. And uh three years before that, I was over at uh Blue Cliff Monastery for a long weekend event at uh in the Thick Not Han uh tradition where we were able to talk a little more. So uh this helps inform you why I've been so interested in talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah, I mean, I have a question though about your personal process. Like, you know, sometimes things go well and it's it's great, but sometimes just like in medicine, I'm assuming, what you do, um, sometimes things don't go well.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

And so how do you work with that? What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Well, at my best, and usually I am, it's like the wide world of sports intro. I think you're maybe a little younger than I am and maybe never saw that show in the 1970s about the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. Uh we criminal defense lawyers, unless we pick and choose our cases really carefully, we're gonna have the losses, we're gonna have the gains, we're gonna have the battle scars. Uh the prosecutors know that I am fearless to go to trial. They know that I care about my clients. They know that I'm like an all-you-can-eat buffet, that even if I find out my client paid too little, I'm going for the jugular. Uh, and when I'm at my best, it's uh it's akin to something that I did with uh Tai Chi uh sparring this last summer. Uh after COVID, I was very fearful of doing any uh Tai Chi sparring. But when I had Julian Shu on the uh podcast, I think it was before or after we uh did the show, I said, Julian, I I don't know how to get back into having that kind of physical contact. And Julian said, invest in loss, which is a big part of big part of Tai Chi Chuan. Invest in loss. That you can't really attack the other person well unless you lose something. Uh to push the other person over, you might have to be pushed 10 times to learn how to push right and to remain grounded, rooted in the ground. So one of the greatest uh Thai Chi teachers in the area who used to be able to push me around like a punching bag starting a few years ago, he was showing me some tips. And uh when he was close to pushing me off balance, and what I try to do not to be pushed off balance is to be like a root, rooted in the ground. That the, you know, the wind can go after the weed, but can't uh uproot the weed too well. Even when I felt close to me being pushed over, I pushed him back using the no more than four ounces of uh energy to push uh 500 pounds. And I was able to push him off balance two or three times this past summer. And to his credit and to my appreciation, he said, good. I mean, I I'm a I'm a born fighter because starting in for good or bad, when I was in elementary school, I got into my share of fist fights. Uh and then going right into from there on, I got into my my share of verbal fights. So uh I've had I've had my experience even before being a Laura about losing and gaining back, losing and gaining back. And and one of the greatest examples there is when a lot of people say, Why did I choose criminal defense? I I'm not going to say her real name, but let's just say Ms. Smith, who was this fourth-grade teacher, uh, prevented me from performing in my first uh uh band concert when I was playing the trumpet, because when she said I couldn't go downstairs to the auditorium to join with the ensemble to prepare for the Greensleeves uh ensemble song, I realized there must have been a broken uh uh intercom. So I snuck down to the auditorium. It was pitch black, no one was there. It was in the morning, so I came back to her class where she was watching over all the fourth graders. She was standing right there in the entrance. She pointed to the principal's office, said, Go to the principal's office, you're not going to perform there. Uh so that was the loss. Okay, I didn't get to perform in the concert. To his credit, Mr. Fink, who is a pretty strict uh musical teacher, he didn't lecture me about not being in the concert. Uh so a few months later, when I was in fifth grade, uh Ms. Smith stopped me in the hallway and she said, What were you doing uh playing in the uh garden apartments across the street last week? And I said, Well, you know, what made you think I was? And she said, uh, because there was a report of a brown-haired boy. Okay, you can see the brown hair on the eyebrows, but not in the top of the head, and a blue jacket playing over there in the garden apartments. So I said, Well, you just described half the boys in the school, Ms. Smith. And she was stunned and uh she was speechless. Of course, the fish story gets bigger every time I tell it. So I said, anything else, Ms. Smith? And she said, No, I said, have a nice day. So I think really when I'm doing the criminal defense from a selfish perspective, I'm really getting back in the Ms. Smiths of the world. And so I had my loss in fourth grade with Ms. Smith, but I got her back in fifth grade. And uh at my best, I recognize that I'm so privileged. I have never uh gone hungry. I've never gone without a roof over my head unless I wanted to, because I love uh camping without a tent. And uh and and I and I really feel for people who who need uh who need a defense. I don't care whether they're a multimillionaire or a uh uh the senior partner at a big law firm uh that maybe wouldn't even have interviewed me when I was in uh law school or someone who's indigent. I was a public defender before. Uh I don't know if that answers it well enough, Wendy, but uh this this is my my space. I'm willing, I'm willing to lose on the way uh to winning, just as long as if I'm gonna lose, it better be because I just couldn't avoid it.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

Yeah, this actually sounds like um what we were talking about in the beginning, um, about grace. Yes. The R of grace is recalling our intention um of like really be rooted. You know, you use the words word rooted, and what really actually roots you it's your deep intention to serve and your deep intention to um bring justice and you know what's right in the world. Uh and and that keeps you going because you're rooted in that. So that's what it sounds like to me.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Yes. Now I don't you agree with this? Whether you think you said it or remember you saying it or not, I thought it was you who said that when you have one patient had one patient die in the hot in the emergency room in the hospital to go right to the next patient, you at least took some sort of pause, even if it was for one or two breaths, to take care of yourself there before going to the next patient before then finishing your shift to then take better care of yourself. Does that sound familiar at all?

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Yeah, something like that. And those two breaths, and those few breaths is actually the grace process.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Yeah. So, you know, if you had something like that happen, you know that you need to, you know, put all those things in your backpack and to work with it later. But um, you know, we have to gather ourselves, gather our attention in order to serve the next person, recall our intention, remember that you know we're here to serve. Yes, we know that you know there's emotions that we're gonna have to deal with, but we might have to put it off till later and um and to remember that we're here to serve the next person also. And and there, you know, if it's really just you just can't can't do it, you just have to take a little time for yourself and know that that's that's necessary. And then, you know, the A of attuning to myself, like, okay, I'm I'm carrying either anger or grief or or discomfort or whatever it is to actually um look at that courageously and be like, okay, yeah, that's right. I just had an argument with you know the the whoever it was, so I'm still angry. So how do I kind of intentionally let that go before going into the next room? So, you know, that's those are the processes actually that that what that's what we were talking about in the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Um I think this is leading well into doing some sort of uh guided meditation, mindfulness, quietness by you before I uh, but first I'm gonna tell you this thing. Not all of my colleagues are as resilient as I am, and I've really worked on this over the decades, and I'm a lot more self-confident being my own boss than when I was under the wing of a boss and trying to figure out my own way there. But I will tell you, I mean, one of my uh favorite trial or colleagues, I guess one of the reasons why she was so great was because she feels so much that she said, one day, I'm not gonna name her, one day when uh uh she really felt that uh her client was cut a raw deal by the judge andor a jury, she got home, and all she could do once she closed the door is just collapse right there on the floor. And about an hour later, she was still there when her husband came. And thank goodness for her for having a husband who totally understanded, understood, and totally enveloped her with uh his love and and his hugging. And and that that uh interpersonal support is just so important for us to have and and for us criminal defense lawyers not to feel alone and and not to feel like we only have each other to uh support each other.

SPEAKER_03 53:50

I think that's so important though, just the fact that she, you know, told you that, because that is that's exactly what we're talking about is to not bypass those human feelings, not to like, you know, uh make ourselves stay in it forever, but to also recognize that we are human and we need to let ourselves cry sometimes. We need to let others take care of us sometimes. So, you know, the the um retreat I talked about with uh uh a bunch of um physicians, um being able to have community who understand what you're going through is extremely important because um, you know, professions like you know, physicians and lawyers actually have a high percentage of feeling lonely, feeling of loneliness. And it's been studied. There are different studies about that, and especially people who have um higher, many higher degrees of of education, they it's been shown that um you know we have a much higher loneliness score than other people because we feel that there's nobody to talk to. Yeah. So forming those networks, forming those close knit networks or or giving, you know, uh providing safe spaces for people to talk to each other. I think those are it's extremely important for us to be able to be more resilient, like you said.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

And in that regard, Wendy, for the criminal defense Laura is listening, it's already been announced by my previous guest, Chris Flor, who I was telling you about, who's on with Don Clarkson. He says that every second Saturday morning of the month, uh we have these free trial practice workshops. This is one of the best ways uh this approach for uh self-help with each other. Wendy, I see how close we're getting to the uh three uh your four o'clock mark for you, six o'clock mark for me when we're gonna finish. What I usually do is to ask if there's anything else that the guest wants to say, but I think it would be great if you could spend at least two to three minutes with all of us to uh get us grounded, get us in mindfulness, whatever you call it or however you do it.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Sure. Um, but before I do that, I just want to say about the Nomads Clinic. There's um documentary that just came out. So if anybody's interested, it's it's um streamable online and it just shows the work that we do and and it's the visually just stunning.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

So Okay, and uh where can where can that be found?

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Um I will have to send you the link so you can put it in there because it's okay, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

I'll put that on my liner notes to this uh to this podcast. Wendy, I'm ready. I'm in your hands.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

Wonderful. So why don't you get into a position that's comfortable for you? Feet on the ground, don't cross your legs, hands on your lap. And just take a few breaths. You can have your eyes open or closed depending on where you are, what you feel comfortable with. Feeling into your feet and your bones into the connection with your chair and the floor. Your deep intention. Why do you do what you do? Your deep intention is bring justice. And at first it could just be a thought. And if it's hard for you to think of these words, you can visualize one person who might be suffering, maybe a client or a recent client. And feel into your deep intention to serve this person, to help this person. What does that feel like in your body itself? For me, when I connect with that deep sense of service, it makes me want to set up taller. What does it feel like for you?

SPEAKER_02 59:27

Thank you, Wendy. Wow, I'm overwhelmed. Where do I end there? But we do have an ending. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Uh before we leave, I want you to be able to share with the uh audience uh again your um your website and UpaZen Center's website, and with any closing words that you would uh like to share that you haven't already said.

SPEAKER_03 59:55

Just thank you for your persistence to bring me on the show. It's been a wonderful conversation, and I, you know, I hope that all the criminal lawyers out there will get something out of it. But just also thank you for all of you for the work you do in the world. We need you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Well, thanks for that. And the UPaya Zen Center's uh web address again in your own web address?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

Yeah, innerpractice.org is my web address, and upaya.org is upia's web address.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Okay, now I'm gonna be giving a donation. Is it only uh possible for me to give a donation to the UPaya site or also it in your own uh web address?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

Um I have uh a specific site um uh under UPaya to that if you donate will go to a scholarship fund um for people to come to UPaya. So I'll I'll send you that address. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

Uh as with Sonia, my guests, I would really love to talk on and on with Wendy, but I guaranteed her an hour. We've already gone two minutes over. Thank you so much, Wendy, again. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense Laura in Northern Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

This has been thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at infobeatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.