SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Northern Virginia. This is Beat the Prosecution. I tell it to you all the time about how I can't control my excitement over my guests. I've got five guests, four guests today. We've got the star of the show, no offense to the rest of you, Samira Ali. We've got Lauren, who's a lawyer in Northern Virginia. We have Lauren Whitley, who's a lawyer in Richmond, a criminal defense lawyer. Aaron Smith, a lawyer in Alexandria, and Jim, uh, hope I'm pronouncing her name right, Magner. He is a lawyer who's a law partner with Samira. I'm going to tell you what spurred me putting together today's show. Uh Samira is in the news, she's in the Washington Post, and uh she's gonna tell her story. Um she got charged with uh uh possible contempt of court, which she got dismissed earlier this week in court. Shouldn't have happened in the first place. It had to do with her not showing up for a court date that she told the court she couldn't show up for if she took a court appointment for an indigent uh client. Aaron Smith, I mean, everyone I'm talking to uh as far as Samira, Lauren Aaron, and I take it Jim because he's he's a he's a law partner with a badass. They're all badasses in the best way. Aaron was on the court appointment list for the juvenile court that uh gave the show cause uh order to Samira. And uh so Aaron, as a result, took her name off that court appointed list. Lauren Whitley, I have tremendous respect for. She's been a public defender lawyer for a few years. I don't know if Aaron was, before we'll find that out. I was a public defender in another state for five years, and she spoke out to the Washington Post. And Jim is a law partner with Samira with a very fascinating story that I read on his website. Without further ado, I will like to start with the star of the show. Each of you, if you would give me give maybe a brief introduction yourself or uh one or two minutes, including promoting uh the office you're at. Let's start with Samira.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

My name's Samira Ali. I am one of the partners over at Magnar Law. I do about 50% criminal defense. The other is civil litigation. And I've been practicing actively since um, well, I got my license in 2014, but actively practicing really since 2018. And then I just joined on with Magner Law at 2020.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Okay. And um where did you uh where did you do your first job as a lawyer?

SPEAKER_04 3:12

So I actually hung my own shingle um with uh two friends of mine. Um so the firm was initially called Ali White and Coleman, and then they ended up moving on, and then it was just um Ali and associates. Keep in mind there's no associates, it was just me. And I was by myself for quite a bit until uh COVID hit. And then Jim and I met um when I was doing mental health commitment hearings in Leesburg, and he asked if I wanted to come on board. And I was tired of working by myself, and I wanted um a little a community and somebody to learn from and people to work with.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

And where did you work between the time you left law school and started that law firm?

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Uh so I spent maybe eight months um at a small law firm in DC, and then I left after about a month after I got my license to hang my shingle.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Okay. And uh Aaron, please introduce yourself to the audience.

SPEAKER_05 4:12

I um graduated law school in 2011 and went to work for a small firm in Alexandria for about two and a half months before I realized it was a terrible fit for me for a whole lot of reasons. So I hung my own shingle then and never looked back. Um, and I love it. I do about 50% retain traffic in misdemeanor cases, and then the other 50% of my work is court-appointed work. Um, I'm on the general district court and circuit court misdemeanors and felonies in Alexandria. I'm on the misdemeanor list in Fairfax, and I am on the court-appointed and GAL list in Arlington juvenile and domestic relations court, and I was in Alexandria until this all happened um in the last couple weeks, and then I removed my name from the Alexandria list, but I had been doing Guardian Ed Lightum and court-appointed work with the Alexandria JDR since 2019. Um, all the other stuff I've been doing since I graduated back in 2011.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

And I want to share with everybody that among all our guests today, I know Erin the best, even though I wanted to get to know her even better, which is this is part of the opportunity here. I have a lot of faith in her and a lot of confidence to uh trade ideas and brainstorm even about uh sensitive matters, and sensitive matters come up more times than we really want. Uh now, Lauren, please introduce yourself. Can Lauren hear us?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yes, I can. Sorry, John. I was trying to unmute. I'm on my cell phone, so it's a little weird. Um My name's Lauren Whitley. I am the current president of the Virginia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Uh, I currently work as a federal public defender in Richmond, but I was pretty recently a state public defender for about 16 years in a number of offices, including Fredericksburg and Richmond and Fairfax.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Well, congratulations on becoming a federal public defender. I doubt that that's a 40-hour a week job, but then again, your state public defender job wasn't 40 hours a week either.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

And uh is criminal defense where you started after law school?

SPEAKER_02 6:26

It was. Yep. I started at the Fairfax Public Defender's Office right out of school.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Wow. It took me uh, I think it was two years after uh finishing law school to be a public defender lawyer. And Jim, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_06 6:42

Uh good afternoon or good evening. Uh Jim Magner with uh Magner Law. Uh Magner Law is a project I started uh after leaving uh firm there where I was a partner uh for a number of years. Um I started practicing in 2000. Uh so it's been a few years for me. There's you can't see my picture because my camera is not working, but I've got a few gray hairs. Trust me on that. Um uh over the 25 years, I've done just about every kind of law that you can do, other than uh uh I guess uh patent law is about the only thing I haven't done. Um I've done everything from criminal defense to insurance law to real estate law to construction law, estate planning, elder law. Um, I've even done some admiralty cases. Um but uh I was serving as a special commissioner for um uh Loudoun County hearing cases involving uh civil commitments and people with mental illness. And Samira was an attorney that regularly practiced before me as a special justice over there. And uh I was impressed with the way that she uh appeared and the way that she handled herself and asked her to come on board uh with uh with Magner Law, and then within a couple years she became a partner.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

And uh uh Jim, do you do much criminal defense yourself?

SPEAKER_06 8:00

Not anymore. That's why I have Samira.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And what is the uh URL for your law firm?

SPEAKER_06 8:06

It is real simple. It's Magnerlaw.com.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Uh Jim, something that fascinated me about you, I don't think we've met before, is I mean, you're as uh uh uh transparent as anything with your biography on your website saying stuff like, Well, I was down in Virginia Beach and uh the bubble or whatever, the floor fell through our real estate. So I got him to Northern Virginia. What led you to be as transparent as that or uh publicly? Is that just the way you always are?

SPEAKER_06 8:35

Yeah, I I don't hide stuff. You know, um I I've always felt that uh you know lawyers, whether they were professors that I had or lawyers that I encountered, always had a tendency to talk down to people and in and talk legalese. And uh and I've always avoided that. One of the greatest compliments I ever got early in my legal career is that when I talked, I didn't sound like a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

That's great.

SPEAKER_06 8:58

And uh and so I just you know, I'm open and honest. I I don't uh don't hide anything about I'm not there's nothing I'm I'm not proud of. Um it's it's been a long journey getting here, and I've enjoyed most of it. Uh some of it's been a little trying, but uh but it's been great.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Well, at Jerry Spence's Trial Horas College, now known as the Trial Horas College, at least after he kicked the Trial Horas College off his ranch and started his own college, uh, one of the biggest focuses starting from day one is to be as real as anything. And if you're anything but real, uh you you really uh get hammered at for that. Okay, Samira, please tell everybody about this uh case you had that led to the hearing earlier this week. And how did you feel when you found out that you received this show cause notice?

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Uh so it's it's uh simple. I I'm not on the court-appointed list in juvenile and domestic relations court, JDR, um, at all. And so I got a phone call from the clerk's office um mid-November saying, you know, we've got a conflict. Um, nobody can represent this client at all. And, you know, the first thing I always ask whenever I do get a phone call is um, you know, can you give me a little bit of information? Because so I could do conflict checks to make sure I don't have a conflict. And I explained that I already had um a previously scheduled evidentiary hearing in Fairfax that I cannot move for another one of my cases. And uh I reached out to the Commonwealth Attorney and I asked them, hey, can you double check for me if there's any conflicts? And also, would you be willing to move this hearing date? Because I'm not available on the 19th. Um, after a couple of days, I didn't hear back from the clerk's office. So I figured they probably found somebody else. And then I got another phone call on November 15th saying, hey, can you take this case? And I said, Well, Commonwealth Attorney said that they can't, they'll agree to the continuance, and then um, you know, so I can accommodate my schedule. So by the time I got the paperwork, is it wasn't until the afternoon, late afternoon of the 15th, Commonwealth Attorney was out. So I do what I usually do. I put together an agreed order and I send it over to the Commonwealth attorney, and they're very gracious over there that if I'm not available, if I'm in a different jurisdiction, um, they will file it and I will just send them a signed copy. And that's exactly what happened. So we submitted the agreed order and we thought everything's gonna be fine as long as everybody's in agreement that we can continue. And I wasn't asking for a long continuance, I was asking for uh three days. So I had made my made sure I cleared out my schedule for um that Friday to appear. And I'm usually really good about I'll cancel doctor's appointments, I'll cancel other appointments, as long as I'm not in court for another jurisdiction that I can't cancel something else, I'll cancel it and I'll reschedule it and I'll figure it out. Um and then while I'm doing the hearing in Fairfax, I find out that the agreed order has been denied. And I take a break, call the Commonwealth attorney and say, Hey, you know, we talked about this. I can't be there. I literally can't be in two places at once. There's nobody that can fill in for me for this criminal case. I'm the only one who can do it. And also I nobody can fill in me for the civil case that I've got in Fairfax. And the Commonwealth attorney was very gracious, and she said, I'll explain to the court what's going on. Um, you know, that we've already talked about it. So I didn't think anything of it. Um, all again, this is routine. I've done this, had to do this beforehand, and I'm sure Aaron knows this and Laura knows this is that we can't control our schedules all the time. Um, so we we obviously have conflicts. And so uh I was very surprised to find out that the agreed order was denied. And then I was also surprised when I found out that there was a show cause issued for me. Um, I think Aaron's actually probably the first person, first and only person I called or texted um when I found out, because I think we were both in a just a little bit of disbelief. And then I said, okay, let's call the court or the clerk's office in the morning and check and see because maybe it was just like a miscommunication. Um, and then sure enough, I called the next morning and got the case number. And then uh, same thing, Aaron and I uh we talk um and I told her as well. And then I got the case number and I immediately filed a motion um because I found out that it was also um set for a day that I was gonna be out of town um during Thanksgiving week. We were gonna go see my parents, and my mom was having um injections in her neck this week. So it wasn't like I could change plane tickets or anything like that. So uh I immediately filed motions um that morning on Wednesday morning. So I filed a motion to continue the show cause, a motion to continue uh my client's hearing, a motion for bond, and then just in case I didn't get the motions to continue, I filed a motion to withdraw because again, I didn't want my client to go without representation. And then I scheduled all that to be heard Thursday morning.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yes. And that was before or after you received the show cause notice.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

So I technically never actually received notice. We have to go get a copy of it from the clerk's office. Um, but that was after I knew about the show cause. So I called the clerk's office on Wednesday morning, found out there was a show cause, got the case number, and then immediately started writing my filings and got them filed um on Wednesday before noon.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Okay. Not not to overdramatize it, but I mean, here you were. You took this as court appointed. The news says you were seven months pregnant. Did you have some sort of more visceral reaction uh to finding out there was a show cause notice than what you've just shared with us?

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Uh honestly, no. I wish I mean I would love to say that I did, but I didn't. I'm more of a and I'm sure Lauren and Aaron and even Jim can know this. I mean, we work in a profession, and you know this. We it's constantly we have deadlines, constantly there is something happening, and we don't have time to overreact. It's more of a we got to figure out a solution and and go quickly. So that's kind of what my brain turned to of I've got to one, I gotta get my two-year-old out the door. I self-dress, at some point take a shower, and then get these written. And then I had something else. I had court um and an appointment in the afternoon. So my first priority was to get everything written, printed, drive it out to Alexandria, get it filed, and then go about my day. There wasn't, I I would love to say that there was more, but it was more shocked and then, okay, we got to do what we got to do.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

All right. Uh well, uh, you may or may not realize you can teach some continual legal education programs on this because not a lot of lawyers are the same. I remember when I was at my first job in law school, it was a government agency, and uh it was the Federal Home Loan Bank Board which regulated savings and loan associations. And when I told one of the uh lawyers there that I want to do litigation, she said, don't you know lawyers in that area get ulcers? Okay. And there are litigators, well, let alone trial lawyers. I mean, that you know, the trial lawyers are really doing the front end stuff. The litigators often don't even get to court. And uh I remember I not intentionally, uh, I had this case involving um uh uh a smoke shop. And uh this undercover guy went 17 and a half years old, bought this cigar from my client's smoke shop, and I got really irritated at the opposing lawyer for the government for not agreeing to work with my schedule. And she got a postponement to work around the undercover guy's uh uh out of state school schedule, and her colleague called me up and complained to me that I was making her upset. And I said to myself, Well, isn't that the very purpose of being a trawl or is not to get bent out of shape about that. And then when I returned to Tai Chi Chuan martial arts practice over the summer, and I said to my opponent, who's one of the greatest practitioners in the air, I said, wait, let me regroup here. He said, There ain't no regrouping. You have to be prepared at any point. And then the next week, when I was watching some of my uh colleagues pushing hands, he tried pushing me from the back, and I was ready for it, and he didn't do it. But what I'm saying here is uh Samira, that ability you have is something that not all of the trial orders have. And that's something that uh that I very much admire.

SPEAKER_07 17:13

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Uh the show cause order for the those who aren't in the know, those who aren't the trial laws, this was to show cause why you shouldn't be found in contempt of court and face up to 10 days in jail, right?

SPEAKER_07 17:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Um and what kind of uh proceeding was it that you missed that day?

SPEAKER_04 17:33

So it was initially the case was set for a preliminary hearing, and then uh we continued it out, uh, like I said, until it could be heard for a date that I was present. But like I said beforehand, I immediately filed a bond motion for my client and immediately uh moved for a motion to continue for a day. And then on top of that, I didn't even have discovery. I don't think I had discovery until the 20th, the afternoon of the 21st. So even if it had proceeded on the 19th, I couldn't have gone forward. And if if I did, it would have been to the detriment of my client because I didn't have any information about what happened at all.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Right. Well, the way I found out about this was there's a uh Laura's discussion group. I'm not gonna say which one it is to protect confidentiality, but it pretty much just revealed the Washington Post ad. So uh Samira, how did this uh case get into the Washington Post? And how did the Washington Post end up speaking with you, your lawyer, Chris Leibig, uh Lauren, and Aaron?

SPEAKER_04 18:30

So I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure how the Washington Post got wind of it. Um, Chris Leibig, who is great, and I wish he was here today, he very graciously um reached out and um he and I spoke and he said he'd be happy to represent me, which I am very appreciative of. Um he did a great job. I'm sure if anybody's read his pleadings, he did an excellent job. He did an excellent job on Monday.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Uh let's give a plug for him. That's spelled L-E-I-B-I-G, right? Yes. Last name. First name is Chris, and he's located in Alexandria.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Okay, he got his plug. Please continue.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Okay. So he did an excellent job, but he reached out to me. Um, I want to say, trying to remember, it was a couple of weeks ago. No, it was the the week after Thanksgiving. He contacted me and said, um, just so you know, I've been contacted by the Washington Post. They want some information. And I am, if anybody knows me very well, I tend to be a bit of an introvert. I like to do my job and I like to go home and I spent like to spend time with my family. Um, and so I don't regularly do stuff like this. And I told I Chris and I talked, um, and I the reporter who did the article, he was very, very kind. And the first thing he asked me was how me and the baby were doing, how my family was doing, which I very much appreciated. And then um I kind of deferred to Chris, and I we deferred um the reporter to the pleadings because everything's kind of laid out really cleanly in there of exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

So the Washington Post found out about this just by word of mouth, what was going on in the courthouse?

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Well, I do know that the reporter, their office is close by to the courthouse, so maybe they were there covering something else. There's, you mean there's a lot of um lately a lot of big profile cases in Alexandria. So I think maybe that's why. But I'm not, I'll be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure how the Washington Post got wind of it. I just got a text from Chris that said, hey, by the way, they uh want to reach out and they want to talk to you about this and see how you're before I move to Aaron and Lauren.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Uh I I imagine do they do you think they just found Lauren because maybe uh Chris said, Why don't you call the VA C DL president? And and Aaron, how how do you know how they found out about to call up Aaron?

SPEAKER_04 20:39

So I let them know um that Aaron and I um were on the list, uh, or Aaron was on the list um in Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court, and she and I both do actively do um court-appointed cases in Alexandria, especially in general district court and circuit court. So if anybody else uh would know how it's what it's like to be a court-appointed attorney, it's Aaron, um, especially in that jurisdiction, because there's it's a short list, but we all know each other really well.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Okay, Aaron. So, Aaron, you spoke to the Washington Post and you took your name off the list. I think it was in reverse order, right? You took your name off the list before speaking with the Washington Post.

SPEAKER_05 21:17

Um I actually I I remember when I got Samira's text saying that she had been show cause, and we got on the phone pretty quickly after and talked about it. I said, That's it, I'm done. I typed up my letter that night. Um, texted Samira a picture of it. I walked into the clerk's office the next morning and handed it to them. Um, and then I got the phone call from the Washington Post. Samira had texted and said, Hey, the post is um asking some questions, they're looking into this. Would you be willing to talk to them? And I said, Absolutely. Um, and so then they reached out and here we are.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Okay, Aaron. So, what's your response to how uh much equanimity uh Samira had over this whole thing? And and and And you were you weren't even the victim of it.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

Um I was definitely not the victim of it. I I don't it's horrible what happened to Samira. She did cause she and I uh and I feel really close to this because she and I were texting and talking when she got that first phone call from the clerk's office. So everything she has said and everything um Chris laid out in his pleadings and in the hearing is 100% accurate. It's exactly what was happening. I remember when they reached out to her on the 8th because she told me, and then again on the 15th when they actually appointed her. So she had truly done everything right. She bent over backwards to try to help um in a jurisdiction that's really desperate for court-appointed lawyers for a number of reasons. Um and she agreed to take this on for them and then had the worst thing happen to her that could have happened. Um and that just it it was so wrong. It sat so horribly with me that I just I couldn't continue to practice there. And so that's when I turned in my letter.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Well, I think not only are all of us the choir here, I take it with Jim too, uh, but I I I really, you know, uh I had a request uh from someone about uh are we gonna be casting a Spurs on the judge here? I can do this without casting a Spurs on the judge, but I I really wonder if there's any natural constituency uh for this judge other than the constituency that supported him in the first place to join the bench. I don't know if you think that's too sensitive to weigh in on, Aaron.

SPEAKER_05 23:36

Um I think I'll withhold on that for now.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Very good. Lauren, how did you end up getting caught contacted by the Washington Post?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Uh I think Chris just put us in touch um just to speak on behalf of, because the VACDL has been focused on court-appointed work and court-appointed fees over the past couple years. And obviously this implicated court-appointed work, um, what happened with Samira and this judge.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Okay. My program my program has talked uh a lot about uh uh the plight of uh indigent defendants and uh uh the the dichotomy between the resources that public defender lawyers have and that uh court-appointed lawyers don't. I am a member of the Virginia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. I can't s I I try to read the list of material as best I can, but uh what is what is being done right now and proposed, not just by the VACDL, but also by uh Justice Ford, Virginia, and anything else to, for instance, close this dichotomy, this dichotomy, this huge gap between the resources that are available to public defender lawyers in Virginia that are is not available to the private lawyers doing court-appointed indigent defense.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Well, I mean, I think I think it's it's good to start out with the general principle that I think all indigent defense in Virginia is underfunded. So I think across the board, um, individuals, you know, I think we would all agree that there are two justice systems. There's a justice system for the wealthy and a justice system for the poor. And and I think that is implicated in the what is spent on indigent defense in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Um, what I would point out that VHCL provides its members that I think is important to highlight is obviously we advocate for all of our members, private, court appointed, and public defenders. Um a big platform and and focus of our mission is to make sure that there is equitable justice for all and individuals have access to justice. And we try to make our system as fair or closer to fair than it is right now. We also do have, and I think this is one thing I just wanted to stress, John, um, uh what's called a strike force. Yes, or a committee through VACDL that will file complaints against judges or bar complaints against prosecutors if individuals are um worried about ramifications or or you know, kind of vindictiveness for trying to stand up for what is right. And that is something that we've hold really high and it's important. And the members of that committee are very long-standing, well-respected members of the criminal defense community. So I just wanted to plug that as a benefit of membership, um, as well as just one of the things BACDL does to try to stand up for court-appointed attorneys, um, who I do think, you know, oftentimes get treated poorly, uh, just as all integer defense.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Right. And and with the strike force, Lauren, I think not only uh I think it would go beyond the uh members of the strike force committee, I think there would be plenty of uh members of the VA C DL who are not even members of the committee who would jump right in and be willing to do strike force work and go right there into the court with the uh uh with these folks, with these lawyers who who are being treated unfairly when what they're doing is they're they're doing their Sixth Amendment duty for their clients.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yes, absolutely. Um and and I think strike force will serve as a buffer to file commission, you know, complaints with the judicial inquiry and review commission, um, jerk, as well as bar complaints. But there's also just the support representing attorneys uh when they do their job and are penalized. Um, members of the committee do that as well. So just however we can support each other to do this work.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Before I go to uh uh Jim, I want to say that uh af yesterday morning, uh Wednesday, uh December 11 was when I received in the morning before going to the Alexandria Courthouse an email I received from Samira saying that she had accepted my invitation to join this uh episode. And really, uh I'm perhaps exaggerating only a little bit that I'm happy I was sitting down at the time because I was so excited about it. Uh I I said to Samira, when I actually saw her in the courthouse, you have to be there. When I finished my court hearing, I said, I believe I'm in the presence of fame. And Samira, that that really wasn't an exaggeration because uh so often when there are injustices, and this was an injustice to you, when we have a face to uh to attach uh to this injustice who's fighting back, that inspires so many of us. And it reminds us, criminal defense lords, we do have to hang together, or certainly we'll hang separately. And uh Jim, how did when did you find out that Samira uh received this show cause notice? What was your response to it? And Jim, I know that you want to address the plight of uh uh of indigent defense beyond what's already been said.

SPEAKER_06 28:44

Yeah, I I found out from Samira right away. You know, we're we're partners. There's a couple of other partners here, we all talk, and and there's no you know, hiding secrets. Uh, one of the things that we immediately discuss when something comes up is how are we as a group of law partners going to address um the needs? You know, if she's going to be tied up doing something, how do we cover other cases? How do we uh handle the workload and how do we help her? Uh and uh and and the rest of that just sort of natural um reaction. You know, I think that's uh kind of a hallmark of our firm is you know, we don't fly off the handle of things. When something comes up, we're in a profession where we exist because things go wrong. And so uh when things go wrong for other people, they call us. When things go wrong for the people that we represent, we gotta figure out solutions. That's what the only reason we exist is to help people with the problems. So uh so we went right into that mode. Um what what's what's frustrating, I think, for me is in and I think for a lot of us out here, is that there is a perception that court-appointed attorneys or public defenders are kind of the the lowest wrong of the legal profession, the people out there that that you know that they couldn't get jobs at you know uh the firm that has offices in New York, Paris, and and London, and so they're doing court-appointed work. Um, and and it's just it's it's such a horrible perception because you look at you look at someone like Samira, who's a $500 an hour partner at a firm in Leesburg, um, we've got plenty of other work that she could be doing and making you know more money in the in the time that it took her to deal with this entire thing she could have made in an hour working on her cases. And and so these indigent defendants, this is a way for for attorneys to give back to the community and be involved in the community, which is something that's important to all of us at Maggie Law. And so they're getting a $500 an hour partner, they're not getting some guy who's you know barely hanging on to his license and and could barely pass the bar exam. This program is providing really, really top attorneys for people who would otherwise be uh unable to afford any counsel. And so when we're out there trying to be part of the community, trying to be good guys, in this case, you know, one of my partners is volunteering in a court that she's not even on the list for. Right. Um we we we hope that that that effort is being appreciated um on both sides of the of the rail, you know, not just be by the prosecutors and judges and court clerks, but also by the community as well to understand that, hey, we don't have to do this. We could be doing anything else with our time and making more money and not worrying about this. We're doing this because we want to be part of the community, we want to be helping, we want to be out there giving back because of the great things that we have. We want to share that expertise that we have. And uh, you know, so when we do that, you know, please don't don't punish us for it.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Well, that's right. I, you know, the criminal defense laws, a lot of the prosecutors, a lot of the judges know there's some great, there are a lot of great public defender lawyers, a lot of great court-appointed lawyers. There was a great story about uh how in um a neighboring county and neighboring state, uh there was the initial appearance, I guess maybe the preliminary hearing for this man charged with first-degree murder. And this uh this 50-year-old balding, short Laura walks in and comes right up to the defendant and says, Hi, uh, how are you? And the defendant says, Who the hell are you? And the uh lawyer says, Well, I'm your court-appointed lawyer. He says, Get the hell out of here. I'm hiring Alan Goldstein. So the court-appointed Laura smiled and he walked out and he walks right in, right back in, and he shakes the man's hand and says, I'm Alan Goldstein. That'll be $500,000. And, you know, that really just underlines it how people just underappreciate the great work that so many of the indigent defense lawyers do. Now, um I don't I'm not always uh there to give a plug on my show to prosecutors, uh, but uh Brian Porter, the chief prosecutor, uh came to the plate right in uh in talking up to the Washington Post and uh and also the line prosecutor and helping out Samira here to tell the judge, hey, you know, the prosecutor's office is is here uh agreeing to the postponement of this hearing that Samira wasn't available to. Uh so Samira, could you weigh in on that? Uh you know, but I I guess at least we give credit where credit's due here with the prosecutors that they did those two prosecutors did the right thing in that instance, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:26

So let me first apologize by two-year-olds in the background. She does want to say, can you say excellent?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Hi, that's your child there. Yeah, so wonderful and precious.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Um, so I I and this goes for everybody that not only came for the hearing on Monday, but everybody who's reached out to me and the prosecutors, it was an overwhelming amount, and I mean overwhelming in a good way, an overwhelming amount of support. Um, and to have that the community rally around the fact of it's not just me trying to shirk a response, I'm not trying to shirk my responsibility, it's we were all in agreement that this is what needed to be done, and this was for the benefit of the client. And so I think it's appreciative of the Commonwealth attorney's comments because that does go a long way when you have agreement amongst the Commonwealth attorneys, because we again we all know that we can't function without the agreement sometimes of our colleagues, and that does go a long way.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yes. How long was this hearing? How many of your supporters were present in the courtroom? And why did this hearing have to take an hour?

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Uh, so it was originally scheduled for 3 p.m. I don't think we went in until about 4:30. It took about an hour, and and then um I think I can't, I mean, maybe Aaron can say more. I don't know exactly how many people were there, but I can say between 30 or 40. I know some people had to leave because um obviously it was getting late, and uh everybody has their own obligations and own work to do, but there was a good I mean the courtroom was full, and then uh my husband was always also there. Um, one of our partners, Megan Metalka, was also there. And so I was very lucky and I was very appreciative of everybody that came. And there was also um a few Commonwealth attorneys that came down um as support as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Okay, did the hearing take an hour, you say, and and why did it take that long?

SPEAKER_04 35:27

We are not sure why it should have taken that long. Um, again, Chris did an excellent job of arguing that the show cause was deficient on its face from the very beginning, um, because the show cause indicated that I failed to answer interrogatories on November 19th. And that was like an if you read the pleading for the motion dismiss, it was very clear is that again, it was void and deficient from the very beginning, and there was argument about that. Um, and there was some discussion back and forth about the facts, and then eventually got to the point where it was dismissed. But it it was uh argument for about an hour back and forth. Um, I let Chris take the um he was obviously my representation, so he took the helm um of the argument, and then you know, if there's any questions deferred to me, I would answer them. But for the most part, I stayed silent, listened, and then eventually it was dismissed.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

And the prosecutor who was present was uh advocating on your behalf.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

Well, that she was advocating, but the keep in mind is that the show cause was not uh in support by the Commonwealth Attorney, so they weren't on their side. It was something that was issued by the court.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Right, but was the but there was a prosecutor in the room, right? Sitting at the sitting or standing at the prosecutor's table.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

No, there wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

They were in the gallery, um, but there was no prosecutor sitting at the prosecutor's table at all. Because they didn't bring it, they didn't weren't in support of it.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

What reason did the judge give for finally dismissing the show cause matter?

SPEAKER_04 36:58

He said it was there was a series of errors that he said.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

I don't know what you're using. I don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I don't mind at all.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Um so eventually it came down to that the court said that there was a series of errors that happened, and there was no belief that there was any willful actions on my part, and then I was dismissed.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Wow. And did you go celebrate after or just go right back to the office or right back home?

SPEAKER_04 37:36

Uh went to go pick this one up um from daycare, and then we did dinner bath time, and I went back to work after she went to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

There are unsung heroes in the world, there are undersung heroes in the world. Fortunately, we are on during this episode singing your praises, Samira, singing the praises of Aaron, singing those of Lauren, and all other people doing the indigenous and court appointed work. And of course, even the paid criminal defense lawyers are often doing God's work. And uh what I would like to seg into is sure if any of you want to talk more about indigenous defense during these final 10 minutes, is the name of this program is Beat the Prosecution. I'd like to go to Lauren. Lauren, what is your most important way of beating the prosecution beyond experience and preparation, or is that what it's all about?

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Um, well, I think preparation is always great. Uh, but I think you need to um uh enjoy your clients and have a good relationship with your clients. Yeah. And I think that's something that prosecutors don't understand from our work. And when you're really fighting beside your client, it is um just you're just a team and it's a stronger defense and it's easier to push back against the powers of the government.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

And anything further than that?

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Um, you know, I I mean, I think there's always creative litigation. What I love about being a criminal defense attorney is you get to think outside the box all the time. So I've definitely practiced in jurisdictions where you will ask why things are done a certain way or why we aren't doing things a certain way. And the answer is, well, that's just how we do them here. And I think that should be a challenge to any criminal defense attorney. Um, anytime someone tells you, well, that's just how things are done, or you know, in Virginia, they like to say that's the Virginia way. And I think that's a challenge to say, well, we should change it and do things differently and challenge things creatively.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Okay. What I what of course we do need to talk about concerning indigent defense, then how do we fix this? How do we make it that this is an aberration about what happened with Samira, that it doesn't happen again, both on the micro level, on the macro level, and on the systemic level and the public opinion level?

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Well, those are big questions. I think certainly it is important to hold our um judiciary accountable when they act outside the perimeters of respect and integrity in their roles. Uh, obviously in Virginia, our judiciary is appointed by the General Assembly. So the easiest way to hold individuals accountable who are on the bench is to talk to your elected representatives. And I encourage people to do that. If you're attorneys and you're seeing things, I also think you know, filling out the Supreme Court judicial performance evaluations is important because the General Assembly relies on those when they evaluate judges for reappointment or elevation. Uh, so I think it's important that attorneys stay active and participatory in those processes. And then I would just plug VACDL again. Being a member of VACDL provides a lot of resources and opportunities to interview judges for state positions, to work on accountability for judges, to um get assistance or provide assistance when individuals are in Samira's positions and looking at judges who are acting irresponsibly and showing a lack of respect for the bar. Uh, so I think that's also a great way to for folks to continue that accountability.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

I agree with that. Everybody joined the Virginia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Aaron, what do you do beat the to beat the prosecution?

SPEAKER_05 41:25

Um, definitely watching the body cam videos. Um, I can tell you the number of times I've gone and met with a prosecutor in preparation for trial, the number of times I've watched the video versus they have they they've actually watched it, almost never. Um, so just being prepared and knowing exactly what's on those videos absolutely goes a long way. Um, also, and this sounds silly, but it's really true. And it's read actually reading the code. Yeah, I can tell you how many times I've had prosecutors just adamant they have such a great case, primarily for obstruction or disorderly conduct, because they've never actually sat down and read what they would have to prove in order to convict somebody of that.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:15

Um, and I know it sounds silly, but it's uh it's very true, especially in those two very overcharged statutes. Prosecutors often just think they know what they're doing without actually taking the time to read what each element is.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

And sometimes they don't even settle the case until the middle of a trial because it's not until the middle of the trial that the prosecutor realizes they've got a witness that's bombing, the law's not on their side, the judge is not on their side, the jury's not on their side.

SPEAKER_05 42:44

Yep, exactly. And tying into that with the judge or the jury being on their side is an ability to read the room. Um, you know, when the judge asks, are you done asking questions and you keep going, you're not reading what's happening in the courtroom. So I think that's a big aspect of it, too.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Exactly. Jim, uh, do you do uh for whatever uh litigation you do, what is your approach to winning?

SPEAKER_06 43:10

I think it all starts and and finishes with your own integrity. Um being a tough lawyer, being hard-nosed, and and being willing to get your knuckles bloodied a little bit in a fight is great. Uh, but people should also know that when you stand up and you say something, it's absolutely true. Um, and and I have found that uh opponents that I have met that I have that respect for, um, you know, we you have that that that professional respect, that deep respect for people. You you can rely on what they say, you can rely on what they're doing. Um, that that just gives you so much more ability to negotiate results for your clients, uh to get good results ahead of time. If they see you walk in the room, they think, okay, that guy is serious, that gal knows what she's doing, um, you're You you're not going to have to get to the middle of trial, hopefully, for your clients before they wake up and realize that you know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Interesting that you say that, Jim. I may have said this on the show before about uh the other side knowing you're serious. One day this uh recently former prosecutor came up to me and he said, You know, John, uh we would sometimes talk about which criminal defense laws we were going against that day. And if uh John Katz's name uh showed up, uh the others would say, How did you draw the short straw? So I said, Did that help me? He said, It did with me. I was lazy. Uh you'd come into court with guns blazing and a court reporter in tow, and I knew that was going to take up my time. And Samira, what do you do to beat the prosecution?

SPEAKER_04 44:46

For me, it's looking at your client as a whole instead of because what often happens is most prosecutors will look at your clients as the one act that they committed, and that was it, or they allegedly committed. And it's also about being creative. I find that most of my clients they have a history, they have a story, whether it be mental illness, whether it be lack of family support, there's always a reason why something happens. I never believe that people are inherently bad, I don't believe people are inherently good. I think life is a series of circumstances, and I've had cases where um, you know, and Aaron knows this as well, is that I look at a person and said, I look, I think, have they had been evaluated for a mental health issue? Um, has somebody been done done a competency evaluation or are they on medication? Um, have we looked at whether or not they have a history of drug addiction? Have they ever received treatment? And all of these are factors in how somebody becomes the person they are and why they have committed or allegedly committed a crime. And I think all of those are factors in how we've even arrived at that day. And if you've taken that into consideration and you're creative, and we all know that we don't get a lot of funds to do the type of work that we do. So you either apply for court funds, or sometimes I paid for stuff out of pocket just so I can get the best defense for my clients because I think it's worth it. And um I remember somebody told me a long time ago is that while it is our job to protect our clients' constitutional rights, it's also important to remember, especially when you take on court-appointed work, they don't get to choose you as the right way. They don't get to choose you. And that's a really tough um situation to be in where you don't know who's walking in. So it's not just um our responsibility to communicate, but also to be able to find something to relate to with our clients so they know that we're out there fighting and we're out there trying to find a creative solution. Um, obviously, you know, so that's that's the way that I approach it is to be creative and make sure we figure out who our clients really are.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

And Samira, what led you to want to do criminal defense? Was it something in your childhood? Was it was a more intellectual?

SPEAKER_04 46:46

Uh so my grandfather on my mom's side was a judge in India. Um, so I always knew when my mom reminds me um that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was seven, and she never let me forget it. Um, so I didn't really have a choice, apparently, when I by the time I got to law school. But I've always, and Jim knows this, I I've been, I've never, for me, it's never about money. So I know that obviously we do need to eventually get paid more. But for me, it's always been about when I look at a person and they don't have a support system or they don't have somebody that's trying to look out for them. That resonates with me a whole lot because I wouldn't recognize how fortunate I am to have the family that I do. And not everybody has that. And I do believe everybody deserves a great defense and everybody deserves somebody in their corner.

SPEAKER_06 47:30

Um, so as your as your partner, Samira, it's okay if it's about the money sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 47:35

I know.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Lawyers, potential lawyers, law students, listen to what Samira just said and take that to heart. There are too many people who try to knock us criminal defense lawyers. And uh for those who are old enough, there was a there was a children's uh toy called Weebles, if maybe they still have them, to say Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. And that's what all us criminal defense lawyers have to be like. We have reached one minute before the ending time. This is where I give each of you the opportunity to say what you haven't already said that you want the opp the audience to hear. And for any of them you who haven't given your web addresses or want to give it again, go ahead. Let's start with Lauren.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Um, so all I want to say is um I think Samira joined VACDL in this process, which I think, while I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Samira. If there's one silver lining, hopefully it's that you joined VACDL and you'll get great resources out of it. And I would just encourage anybody who's a criminal defense attorney. We're the only criminal defense attorney organization in the state. We don't allow prosecutors or part-time prosecutors. Um, and our whole mission is to have your back so you can have your clients back. Sure, it's it's V A C D L dot O R G.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

And Aaron.

SPEAKER_05 49:01

Okay, so my URL right there is um real easy. It's myfairfaxlawyer.com. Um and also, Lauren, I intend to join VACDL. My very good friend Blake Willison has been bugging me to join for a very long time. And throughout this process, I learned about the strike course and was like, that's enough to get me to join. So I will be joining as well, even though I've heard lots of great things about it. Um, I just I think I want to conclude by saying um this whole experience, while it's been horrible uh to see what Samir has gone through, um, it's also been really reassuring. Like she stated to see how many people had her back throughout all of this.

SPEAKER_07 49:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 49:49

Not just the defense side, but the prosecutors too. There were, I was like she said, I was there for the hearing. There were dozens of attorneys there, both defense attorneys, prosecutors, city attorneys, um, lots of people, and all in support of her and recognition of what she's done, um, because she's a phenomenal lawyer. Um, I've had a client who we started to butt heads, and Samira got handed a real mess of a case, and I've never seen someone work so hard, and she got this man a great outcome. She's still working on it. Um, but she did what I never could have done, and she definitely didn't deserve what happened here. But I think it's made her a stronger person. It's definitely renewed our faith in the um defense and prosecution out there.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

So and you said what there were city lawyers there also at the hearing?

SPEAKER_05 50:45

There was, yeah, members of the city attorney's office. There were a number of prosecutors, um, as well as defense attorneys. Um, there was at least one or two guardian ed lightums. Wonderful.

unknown 50:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

We're gonna call if some judges had walked in, but I I doubt that happened.

SPEAKER_05 51:01

I think there might have been a law clerk or two there on behalf of judge.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

So thank you, Aaron and Jim.

SPEAKER_06 51:10

Yeah, I I think uh the one thing I want to leave people with if you're a young lawyer, you're a law student, um, as you go through your career, it is really important that we give back to the community. And uh you may have opportunities to go work at highfalutin firms or do great stuff that that uh makes lots and lots of money for you and other people, but we still have an obligation to our communities to give back and find ways to uh to do things to help all of us uh in the communities that we live in. And sometimes you know things go badly, sometimes uh situations come up that aren't pleasant, but that doesn't change our obligation to be out there uh because if something bad goes hap happens in court, it's not the fault of the poor indigent person who doesn't have representation. Um, you know, we have to sometimes we have to take it on the chin and go forward because that's our job, and and still be out there fighting for the people who deserve our help.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Excellent. And and it's particularly excellent comment from you, Jim, from uh someone like you said, who's in the background of having done plenty of different types of uh law work. Uh uh it may be a mischaracterization, but it does sound like you have elements of being part of the uh of the establishment. But if you are, you're part of the establishment that's doing the right thing there, and I really appreciate that. And finally, Samira.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

So the first thing I want to say is that again, thank you for every single person that reached out, every single person that provided support. Um, it was uh overwhelming in the best kind of way because I could have never predicted that, and I very much appreciate it. Um, and while I know that this story became highlighted in the Washing Post, I'm also well aware that I'm not the only one that's had to experience something like this. So to everyone who's had to experience this, go through this. I am very deeply sorry. Um, and I hope there's a way that we can stop this from happening in the future. And my last thing is that please, no one, if you can stay on a list and still help somebody, please do. Because again, most people don't get a choice when they're indigent clients, they don't get a choice in who represents them. And they we still need good legal defense for these clients because everybody deserves a defense, not just depending on how much money that you have.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Putting the defendants first, absolutely. Uh and Samira, please remind or tell everyone what is the URL for your law firm?

SPEAKER_04 53:32

So, really simple magnerlaw.com, M-A-G-N-E-R Law.com.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

I am beyond blessed that all of you have joined today. Uh this has gotten an important message out, and I'm so happy that none of you said, no, I can't do it because of this or that. It's too sensitive or whatever. Samira Ali, Aaron Smith, Lauren Whitley, and Jim Magner. Thank you so much for joining. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Northern Virginia. Call these folks if you need to retain Laura and Lauren Whitley. Uh get a chance to talk to her on the VA C D L Listserv if you're a Laura and join the organization. Hold on just one moment, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beat the prosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.