SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia Criminal Defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Kemitz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. What a great guest I have with us today. I probably spoke with him briefly at best in 2000 when he was at the sentencing for the plowshares versus depleted uranium, when uh Ramsey Clark and I defended uh four plowshares activists. And uh Mark Colville himself is uh at the Catholic Worker House in New Haven. He'll tell you about that. He's a plowshares activist himself. I'm sure there's a lot more. I've only been able to scratch the surface of his biography. Mark Colville, please introduce yourself to our audience.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Well, thank you, uh, John. I'm very uh pleased to be invited tonight. Um I'm Mark Colville. I'm part of a of a movement called the Catholic Worker Movement, um, which involves uh small uh you know neighborhood-based communities uh working for social change um and uh um in the context of the daily practice of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. So um that's kind of led us into a bit of um you know organizing and and uh movement uh pushing, you know, trying to you know nonviolently ad advocate for uh policy and law changes, um, particularly with regard to uh uh the criminalization of homelessness and poverty, and um and of course uh uh war and the uh particularly nuclearism as a as a real violation of law and human rights. Um so Mark, you and I have at least three things in common.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I don't know how long you've been in New Haven, but I grew up in Fairfield, Connecticut, and one of my best friends in college lived near the Yale golf course. So we spent much time in uh New Haven, whether we were being obnoxious or just having a good time otherwise. Uh-huh. Uh I represent, like I said, I represented some plowshares activists. No offense to you. I would have preferred to have uh interviewed one of the one of the plowshares activists who was at that trial, but Susan Crane, she's not going to be released from uh jail in Germany until January. I represented Steve Kelly, I'm not sure if he's available. Uh Phil Berrigan passed away in 2002, and then there's Elizabeth Wall. So I'm grateful to have you here. Uh I heard the outgoing message on your machine at the Catholic Worker House in Spanish, and that's my third language. So uh with that, how long have you been uh with the Catholic Worker House in uh in New Haven and when was it started?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Well, I'm uh my wife and I helped to found the place. We're co-founders um uh in 1994. Um and um the name that we attach to the house is is Amistad, and um that has a particular significance here in the neighborhood um because it uh folks may be uh familiar with the story of the Amistad um Africans uh who were kidnapped in the slave trade and brought over and uh mutinied on the ship. And um anyway, they long story short, they ended up uh drifting into New Haven Harbor, um, were eventually uh were held actually incarcerated on the New Haven Green, and um eventually uh uh their case going to the Supreme Court, they uh they won their freedom. Um there's actually a really good movie that came out about that in the early 1990s, but um actually our neighborhood has a little uh uh Trowbridge Park, which is actually a park that was designed as a um originally designed to be an integrated community of of freed slaves and and allies and uh abolitionists, um, which is just down the street from here.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

So uh what made you choose New Haven? Do you have roots uh in southern Connecticut?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yeah, actually, you know, I grew up in Madison, um, the other side of New Haven from Fairfield. Um and uh yeah, both of my parents grew up here in the city uh and moved us out to the suburbs. So um I had a bit of a bit of a journey to get back to the uh to the inner city here. But um yeah, I gravitated towards here by way of the South Bronx. I did um I finished college in New York City and ended up staying there, uh living in uh South Bronx neighborhoods and doing community organizing there, uh which is where I met my wife Luz Caterino. Um so we moved here in in uh 1994 and actually uh uh we we raised children here in the in the Catholic worker community here, um, which was quite an experience.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Now you did a plowshares action a few years ago. How many have you done? And please tell us about uh your plowshares actions and and what uh the plowshares movement is about.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Sure. Well, I've been uh involved in three uh different plowshares communities that um that did actions, uh first one being in 1997 and the uh the most recent one in 2018. Um so the plowshares movement um takes its inspiration from the prophets, uh particularly the prophet Isaiah in the uh Hebrew scriptures, um, a passage in uh chapter two, verse one, where um the new world is being described, uh the world to come in which nations will not uh raise the sword against one another again. They will hammer their swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks, and um that you know war will not be you know taught again to our children. Um so uh what the plowshares movement um uh kind of is articulating since uh 1980 when the first uh first plowshares action took place is um that for humanity to have a future, uh, you know, in light of the nuclear age and nuclear weapons, that for humanity to have a future, that that prophecy has to be enfleshed in the world today. Um, and that uh uh nations are incapable, the nation states as they've um developed in our history and and in human civilization are incapable of doing that. Um so it becomes the uh you know the sort of the duty, the responsibility and the right of citizens in a democracy, then uh to begin that process. So the plowshares movement is about uh you know going beyond the law in order to uh to bring that process into uh to initiate it in history.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Okay, so uh do you have a waiting list of people to do plowshares actions?

SPEAKER_01 7:40

And uh we are accepting applications.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

There's no waiting list, is there?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

No. So um typically though, okay, so this is um it's kind of wrapped up uh for me anyway, the you know, the the plowshares experience is very much wrapped up in the New Testament and in law, okay. Um and I say that because um if you really read the New Testament, uh, you know, even whether you know from a faith perspective or not, um, most of the New Testament is is about wrestling with law, okay? Um it's about, you know, first of all, of course, the the gospel stories of Jesus always being, you know, uh actually being identified with criminals from the time he was uh born, you know, born into homelessness, um you know, exiled as a as a young person in political exile, uh, and on and on, you know, and then ending up on death row and then executed legally by uh you know by law. Um you know, uh, but then also you know, the all of the the rest of the New Testament, you know, a lot of uh Paul's letters particularly are are all about what what is the uh the the Christian conscience, what what what is our relationship or what should our relationship uh be to the to the law. Um so um yeah, so plowshares actions again are are uh you know exercising the human right, you know, to to not live with a with a uh you know with a gun to the head of all humanity. You know, that that's the the reality that we live in right now is that um is that the nation state, the nuclear uh rogue states are prepared not only to destroy our enemies' children, but all of our children, you know, right um to defend uh whatever their own uh existence and their way of life. Um and so it's an intolerable situation that doesn't have a future. And so, you know, citizens then are in this movement take the uh take the hammer up, and we what we do is we uh we uh trespass onto uh the places where these weapons are being developed, uh uh stored and held, uh deployed, etc. Um, we we trespass onto those uh places and we try to get as close to them to these weapons as possible, and we enact again uh a symbolic uh disarmament action. It's kind of like a you know, from a faith perspective, we would call it a liturgy of exorcism, actually.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Um so so you were in, I think you said, was it three of these actions?

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah. First one in in um Bath Maine in in 1997.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Um Bath, Maine.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, where they were uh uh developing the um the Aegis destroyer uh battleships equipped with uh among other things tomahawk cruise missiles and and quite a bit of nuclear firepower. Um so these ships are being built up in in Bath, Maine.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Uh was it was this at a a private or government facility or a hybrid facility?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Uh well it was at Bath Ironworks, which is where they build the ships. Uh of course it's military contracts. Um we uh we had and the ship was there was a a couple of uh ships there in the yard. Um we were we had some kind of false information that um that the ship had not yet been turned over to the navy.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

That we found out when we boarded the ship uh very late at night um on Ash Wednesday of of uh 1997 that um not only had it been turned over to the Navy, but it was occupied by by uh Navy personnel.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Um that that's uh that's fascinating. I didn't know that part of it.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah. So we boarded the ship, you know, again with household hammers. We uh the other uh particularly poignant symbol that is used in these actions is is blood. You know, we use we have our own blood safely drawn. Um, and we mark these, you know, we mark the weapons um and their delivery systems with uh with exactly what those who press the buttons do not see.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

So it's trying to bring the the reality of these weapons uh to the fore. Um and of course, then we uh this is not a a stealth operation. We uh when we're finished doing this uh this public liturgy, we then simply uh you know peacefully wait a way to rest.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Um is that what you call the I'm I'm trying to keep track of it. Is that what you call the first witness or the second witness? I'm trying to remember if the first witness is the actual uh hammering on the armaments, or if that's waiting to be arrested. Yeah, well that would be or if the trial is the second or third witness.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, the arrest would be sort of the second part. And then um there is there is a bit of a tradition in in the plowshares movement, although it's not it's not adhered to by everybody, but oftentimes groups will um you know uh particularly look at the at the arrest and the jail, uh we call it the jail witness as a very significant part of the of the process, uh, because it it places us uh on some level in solidarity with the victims of of this um of nuclearism, you know. It's a uh as as all of the popes in the 20th century or yeah into into now have have proclaimed that uh nuclear weapons are an outright theft from the poor. It's um it's a transfer, the whole nuclearism uh is just a transfer of resources uh from things that are usable into things that can never be used. All the popes in the 20th and 21st century have said since the development of nuclear, since Paul VI, yeah, right. And oh well actually John the 23rd um condemned uh nuclearism as well. Um now um again we we come into these uh these actions with with a certain uh I should finish that point is that um you know we kind of we understand the jail uh witness part as part of the overall picture, okay? Because we identify um nuclearism uh not only as a specific oppression coming from the government, but we identify it as a religion, okay? That the what the government has done uh has embraced nuclearism as a religion. In other words, we are we are uh placing our ultimate security in these weapons, and and it becomes then a compulsory uh religion for the citizens of this country. Um that we are, you know, and for me personally, uh in terms of conscience, um, knowing that uh that I can't necessarily do anything by myself to reverse this policy, um I, you know, it's it's part of my own faith journey to get my to get my name off of these weapons, to refuse to live under their security. So these these uh actions then become a way of, and you know, I'm I'm a I'm a Catholic um with a lot of uh convictions about what that means. Um and um you know, part of that is uh you know, nuclear, nuclear weapons are idols, you know, and and the nuclear, the religion of nuclearism is idolatry. And then the unique thing about idolatry in in uh you know the Hebrew scriptures and in the in the Bible, the unique thing about idolatry is that, and the real problem with it is that it involves human sacrifice. Yes, it's not about worshiping other gods, it's about worshiping death, okay? And that these um, you know, these weapons, you know, even in even in the Psalms, they're they're called uh, you know, gods of metal, you know, the sword is this is an idol that wasn't one of the plowshares' actions called the gods of metal plowshares.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

That's true, yes. Um in 1997, you went on to this uh this ship with how many other plowshares and uh what what happened with all you and did you go for a stay at trial? And what kind of sentences did you serve?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Well, there were six of us, uh including Philip Berrigan, um and Steve Kelly, who you mentioned earlier. Um Steve Baggerly, who's uh another, I know you are familiar with him. Uh right, I'm familiar with all these names, of course. Yeah, yeah, right. So um, so we uh again, we went on this ship. Uh we had to kind of scatter when we noticed that there were all these Navy personnel there. Um actually one of our number, um, I guess I can say it now, Steve Kelly, we managed to get inside the ship and got to the control room where actually where the where the uh you know the missiles are are launched or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Um and um and let's let's point out Steve Kelly is a Jesuit priest, and he is well like like just about all the plashes, not all of them, he's tough as nails.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yes, and the reason that you can't talk to him right now is because he's underground.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Um we we I'm not gonna bother going there.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

So yeah, we can no, but just to say that Steve, uh, it's part of his conscience not to cooperate with things like supervised release, because right for him that's an admission of guilt or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

So look, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in here and tell you that I enjoyed tremendously everyone I dealt with, with that uh plow chair's defense and not not just knowing and dealing with the defendants, but also going to Joan House for dinner and spending uh there, which is a wonderful peace community in Baltimore, and uh, you know, visiting the the inmates several times uh before we did uh the trial. And of course they were inmates, not because they couldn't get bond, because I I think they there's this practice, right? Sometimes among the play shows of just not agreeing to uh pretrial release conditions and and the time I spent with Ramsay Clark, I mean, so amazing. Uh I remember one day I picked him up at his mom's home, which was uh uh near DuPont Circle in DC, and we went to visit the inmates. And I said to him during our drive, I said, So what did you think about um uh J. Edgar Hoover? Yeah, right. J. Edgar Hoover. You know, because of course J. Edgar Hoover was the FBI director when uh uh when Ramsey was attorney general, Lyndon Johnson's last attorney general. I mean, what J. Edgar Hoover was was the uh was the FBI director for several presidential administrations, and whether or not the presidents kept him because they thought that he had too much uh information on them andor their administrations or on their politics that could harm them. Nonetheless, he was the FBI director then. And Ramsey just floored me with his response. He said, I don't think he had any evil intentions, I think he was following his own view about what was right. What a decent man that was that Ramsey would say that, because I think a lot of his fans would have said differently. All right, now back to you because this is an interview with you. So um, yes, we had all those people. Uh what so what happened? You waited around to be arrested, or were you easily found? And then what happened as far as being arrested, prosecuted, jailed, and uh pretrial and going to trial?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Well, yeah, um five of the six of us uh, you know, well, actually, we all refused bail um and stayed in the county jail there for several months until trial. There was one uh one of our number, Tom Lewis, um had to uh get out on bail pre-trial uh because of some family issues. But we ended up uh, yeah, so that's um it's important as you kind of alluded to there that the plowshare is uh it's much more than an action. It's sort of a and it really involves the the main uh thrust of it is building a community, uh, you know, build building community uh apart from nuclearism. Okay, right. So these actions and so we kind of build community around these actions, you know, that the action is a is a commitment that's very difficult for individuals and families to take on by themselves. And so you need to form a you know a community of mutual support in which people are willing to kind of lay down their lives for one another. Okay, so of course the the people who do the action are, you know, it is it is a risk, you know. Oftentimes we're going into uh, and most of the time, let's say we're going into like deadly force uh zones where you know soldiers are authorized to shoot. Um and so we have to prevent present obviously a a nonviolent um you know uh presentation and demeanor. And um, you know, so we train ourselves and each other in how to do that. Um, but again, the um, you know, it it takes a community to cross this line that that the law has driven, you know. Yes, uh essentially what we're saying with these actions, particularly when we go to court, is that nuclear weapons exist in a legal vacuum. Okay, there's a legal vacuum that that the US Empire has constructed around these weapons, so that the question of their legality is not even to be raised in a courtroom at this point. Similar, in fact, um, this last plowshares action that I was involved in was in southern Georgia.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

And what was that uh action's name?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

That was called the um um Kings Bay Plowshares. The uh Kings Bay is a military base down there in southern Georgia, uh where they have where the uh it's a home port to uh a collection of uh of uh Trident submarines, which are the most. destructive uh weapon uh weapon system ever known to human civilization um and this is the largest of the of the uh ports uh uh uh keeping those um so i mentioned that because um you know again nuclear weapons being in a legal vacuum i i raised this point in the federal court in brunswick georgia you know uh in my testimony that um is very similar to the question of slavery in this very courtroom you know that we were in this in this very courtroom you know 150 years ago or whatever the question of of slavery's legality was not allowed uh it was so I mean it to kind of illustrate that yes we are beating literally beating our heads against a a wall here that uh shows no sign from a legal perspective of ever coming down and yet uh they these walls always do come down when when people bang on them um so that's the essential point okay okay so in uh in in the bath um uh action uh did the uh defendants go pro se without a lawyer or were there lawyers for some or all of you on standby or just directly and uh was this a jury trial which I take it it was and and what was the result with sentencing yeah we had a um pro se everybody went pro se um we made uh extensive arguments um actually from the uh religious freedom perspective was was uh was one uh argument we made um uh necessity you know the necessity defense uh given the emergency of nuclearism uh nuclear policy first strike policy that um that this this was like a burning building that we're running into to try to judge allowed these arguments to be made in front of the judge well these are the arguments we would make pre-trial and they would routinely be denied okay um so that so the judge prevent it was a jury trial right and the judge prevented a lot or all these arguments from being presented to the jury yes so um so then and of course those questions get resolved before the jury is seated and then this was in federal court yeah so we ended up um trying to push the envelope on all of these arguments because obviously uh we believe even legally that that we have every right to make these you know make these arguments and let a jury decide you know but that's the one thing they're terrified of is letting people actually exercise conscience in a courtroom um court members using exercising conscience in a courtroom so um yeah again we um we we make these arguments and in that trial we ended up with by consensus we agreed that at at some point when uh when we were getting nowhere uh we we did the old I guess it's an old Irish tactic where we turned our backs to the judge and towards the audience and appealed to them to understand that that we were getting no uh fair hearing here.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

At what point was that was that on the first day of the jury trial or what uh no it was it was well in I mean obviously the the the prosecution went first it was about a uh day and a half into the the defense part before and then so we um and then we uh we just uh well the the feds were very uh the federal marshals particularly were very upset about this um and as we were reciting uh you know the scripture the uh the beatitudes or whatever um right we were all the scripture of the day huh was it the scripture of the day the passage no the beatitudes blessed are the poor in spirit are the peacemakers all that yeah so um and from that time that that was very interesting the the judge was kind of a kind of a hothead uh judge carter um right i think we forced him into retirement um anyway um he didn't know what to do so what he did was he had us all removed he didn't have a playbook on this didn't have a playbook so he had us all removed from the courtroom we for the remainder of the trial and we had we announced that we were terminating our participation in the trial um for the remainder of the trial we were kept in a holding cell in the basement of the courthouse uh with a closed circuit camera you know a TV right where we could watch the proceedings and a little red phone if case we wanted to uh to participate okay so so what was the audio uh piped into you as well with the video yes so we watched the proceedings and um we didn't participate um and then uh we were uh eventually uh found guilty in the holding cell okay and so you didn't participate in the sentencing either then well uh yeah we um we all we we did go to sentencing we all uh made statements at sentencing um and by that time we were 10 months in i again we had uh uh refused uh bail and so we had been 10 months in the county jail uh actually at that time nowadays they s they scatter everybody to the four winds when you're in in the system but back then we all shared a cell block so it was a real formative experience with you know philip arigan uh living with him in a in a jail for 10 months um i i really was uh quite uh mentored by by phone quite a holy man actually and and steve kelly of course too right yeah so i i got some real um real good mentoring uh and and lasting friendships through all of that um but yeah um the uh the second uh plowshares action i did we actually before we get there uh what was the sentencing for you what was oh yeah um so i uh i received a 13 month sentence for that oh so you were out uh soon after you got sentenced yeah i i did all together just about a year uh and i finished it off the last uh month and a half i guess was when they finally got to a federal prison of course all the you know when you're in the joint there it's uh everybody's trying to get to the federal joint because not because it's so comfy but just because it's um it tends to be better uh right than these crappy little jails in the in the towns you know uh so so what's interesting with me uh about uh when the defendants and and uh the plowshares case that i did with uh ramsey was well first of all i really found out about uh the the uh jonah house movement uh through my indirectly through my uh peace mentor junia suda and behind me is her calligraphy namomyohorenge kyu moku the essence of the lotus sutra which she chants all the time so I may have uh well I I interviewed her before on the podcast so I won't go into the whole history except I will say so my first uh time joining a peace action with Jun Sun was around 1999 after a peace walk uh uh uh for many miles in New York State and I met up with the folks over they were across the United Nations praying for peace and chanting for peace and I met this woman named Audrey from Ithaca who told me she had spent some time at Jonah House. I got Joanha House's email address got on their list uh on their list and there was this woman named Elizabeth McAllister who ran the list I didn't know at the time she was Phil Barrigan's wife but sure enough I got invited to uh to join with uh with Ramsey in that defense so that was pretty cool anyway since often they go pro se right and uh we had Doug Rocky who was like a loyal a member of the loyal opposition who was probably the the greatest expert in the army about depleted uranium uh missiles or bullets whatever you call them and that's what this uh plowshares action was that I did that jury trial on it was uh the four plowshares the plowshares four versus depleted uranium and when we put uh Doug Rocky on the witness stand every question I asked him aside from his name rank and serial number for the most part had an objection sustained by the prosecutor who actually became a circuit court judge over there Mickey Norman is in the Baltimore County uh circuit court so eventually I said I keep hearing sustained so I have no further questions no sooner did Doug leave the courtroom that uh all the four uh defendants uh stood up uh I forget which ones I think it was Phil and Elizabeth who turned their backs to the judge Steve started uh reading I think from the uh Bible passage of the day from Jeremiah Susan got up and she insisted we are being denied our right to present a defense and this was in the ceremonial courtroom the largest courtroom in the courthouse and almost everybody in the audience was supporters and most of them uh stood up and I guess this uh what originally in the South Africa the the uh song of him courage brother you are not alone guide you uh on your way home something like that I was I was just so impressed with what seemed like the choreography here but I actually spoke to a teenager who was in the audience I said was this practice said no she just said everyone stood up and started singing a little singing the hymn I knew the hymn I just joined along yeah and uh so the defendants refused to participate further in the trial like with you they were in the uh their cell uh uh adjoining the courtroom and uh I think I don't think the all the defendants came in for sentencing I think Phil maybe came in and and read a statement uh to the judge so you know uh there were a lawyer or lawyers who said to me John you put all that time into the case and and and the defendants uh refused to participate any further I knew that that was what plowshare's actions could be about I was ready in fact when I heard um Jerry Lefcourt who was one of Abby Hoffman's lawyers talk at the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers meeting the first criminal defense lawyers meeting I went to nationally in 1991 in Philadelphia he was talking about Abby Hoffman said to him you just keep me out of jail and prison so I can do my work I said to myself gee I think I missed the boat about representing activists that's not true what Ramsey said to me was oh you got plenty of interesting activists to represent if you just do it for free and that was true.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Now getting back to you you started talking about your second action what was the name of the second action well the second action went um somewhat unnoticed um because uh we we ended up not being prosecuted the uh this was at um this was in 2003 uh folks may know that in New York City they they have a big uh I I would call it a warnography conference you know it's um they call it fleet week when all the uh the sailors come in uh to the port there uh up the Hudson River and the ships dock for a week and they have a I guess the veterans run around New York City for for a week it's called Fleet Week and it it culminates on Memorial Day weekend. So uh one of these Aegis destroyers um which uh had been built in Bath Maine and was being used uh uh to enforce the blockade uh and the sanctions on Iraq back then um yeah we uh they they were offering tours of these ships and so we got a little uh we got a little wink wink with democracy now and they followed us in the tour behind us with a camera and always rely on Amy Goodman yeah right so uh actually there was a video on YouTube of that um with us uh kneeling on top of the missile hatches on this um on this destroyer uh and reading the scriptures again um so we were we were actually uh they didn't know that was a very public uh and and plows here's actions the actions themselves tend tend to not be so public uh oftentimes you know sometimes they go to uh like an air show or something which is very public but and so so this was uh this was seen by several hundred people and kind of shut down the tours for a while ultimately they you know they the FBI interrogated us for about 10 hours um or held us that long there at the port and then um and then they just kind of spit us out they didn't know what to do with us. Actually you know the um one of the reasons we believe that they uh that well this was this was just when Bush was you going into Iraq again you know after all the you know all the crap about you know Colin Powell testifying you know the weapons of mass destruction anyway they had just been launching that and there was just a real spasm of patriotism going on.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

This was in 2002?

SPEAKER_01 35:19

2003 2003 but also um in terms of plow shares there had been an action uh I think you had mentioned it before out in Colorado um depleted uranium plowshares I believe that was the one oh no I'm thinking of a different uh there was a uh they went they addressed some missile silos out there in Colorado Artith Artith Platy and Carol Gilbert I think yes so they were just being they were about to be sentenced when we had when we did this action um so it could be also that they didn't want you know to have these two plowshares actions be kind of prominent in the news when when the country was like having a patriotic orgasm at the time over you know invading Iraq again.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Or was it have did it have to do with how much or or no damage you did was there any damage done in that action with fleet week?

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Well the typical stuff you know throwing the blood around and and chipping some paint with the hammers actually with that with that action because of the metal detectors we had to actually use metal I mean uh wooden hammers as uh rubber hammers so we didn't do too much damage. And the blood the blood does that symbolize the blood of Jesus to to cleanse the sins of mankind well i i would say we we would articulate that in such a way that you know as Christians we're called to shed our own blood rather than the blood of another no that we we do not shed the blood of another person uh to the point where we're willing to shed our own blood um yeah so it did not so much with the whole Jesus uh died for me sort of thing um okay now um so then we get to Kings Bay Plow shares uh when was that action uh who was involved what did all you do and and what happened after that uh once you got arrested yeah so that was um that was in 2018 um I should say that we uh our original plan was to do that action on Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday uh in January um because of some community issues that we had um actually it was we we we had uh and again I can probably talk about it now we we actually tried to do the action on MLK Day and we failed ultimately it was the first plowshares action in recorded history in which the activists had to break out of the base we had to cut a fence to get out of the base and we could not get to the place where we were trying to get oh okay so anyway we ended up postponing that to um uh Martin Luther King uh you know had the uh had the good sense to die uh in April um so it just a couple of months later we came back and did it on the 50th anniversary of his assassination and that was important to us because we used a a a particular quote uh that he had uh uh said in a speech a couple of weeks before his death kind of became our um sort of our call to action for this and what he said was the ultimate logic of racism is genocide okay and so we sort of uh took that and kind of expanded it to the ultimate logic of nuclear uh weapons is omnicide okay um and so what we were particularly trying to do with that uh action and again this was in light of the Trump administration coming in and you know the the descent into fascism which has been going on in this country um so we really were connecting uh nuclear weapons uh not only as idols but as the idols of white supremacy okay that we were trying to articulate that that this whole nuclearism thing is is is the backbone of of a white supremacist culture okay that uh the kind of violence uh that that uh we're preparing for with nuclear weapons is is in support of of this uh kind of racist system that we are continually trying to dismantle and so um and then we kind of began to understand the jail again the jail uh experience very very harsh uh jail there in um the maximum security holding facility in this little town in brunswick um which i i ended up spending about 15 months in it was so okay so you're in maximum security pending the trial or only after the trial or both pending the trial this is a the place we were held they wouldn't call it a maximum security they just called it a detention center because because the people uh in there were there first of all you're you're only supposed to be there for a couple of weeks it's for while your case is being adjudicated you know um right you know you're going through the plea process or whatever and they need a place to hold people so but people were being held there you know I met there was a guy in my cell who had been there for four years so um and so when they're holding when it's just a holding facility like that they can impose uh maximum security conditions on so we never got to leave the the cell block ever uh except to go to court or whatever right so yeah and uh I say that because no time outdoors no uh it it was um it was very tense in there and and again very racist situation like the you know the cell block that I was on 35 people at any given time I was maybe one of three or four uh white people yes on the cell block um people were being held there most of them most of the people being held there were held on on probation holds what they do in the town like that is um they you know they arrest black people at night is what they do you know and then then uh they they threaten them with all kinds of charges they ended up they end up pleaing to something um in order to get out of of jail of that jail and they usually agree to a plea that involves a long probation period like a two years probation for a for a just a misdemeanor is very typical um and they use the probation uh process so that people would call it you know being on paper you know so if you're out there on the street you don't even have to be involved in anything if a cop pulls up to you and they're not supposed to do it but they can run your name through a computer right um if you're on probation they can take you in for any reason they want. And so so the probation was being used as a way of just keeping people uh trapped in the system. Um and you know again I I identified that as uh sort of the victims of this idolatry of the weapons you know that that that the these are the victims the people that are uh whose lives are being ruined by uh by legal process you know yes so anyway uh we we went into that base um and we uh there we addressed uh three different areas uh with this action there one uh my my friend Patrick O'Neill and I were went to uh in the the the base is almost like a whole town in and of itself and in the center is this kind of a shrine to nuclear missiles.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah it's um they have built uh replicas of of the nuclear weapons that have been used or stored at that site over the years and um you know it is a place where people bring their kids and they kind of they pay tribute to the Air and Space Museum they have the uh they have the missile exhibits right yes right and the Enola Gay they have too um right so yeah so we went to the and and hammered all over that thing and and spray painted um you know peaceful messages and stuff um uh others went to uh that there is a deadly force zone directly uh next to that uh which is where the there's bunkers there where the weapons are being stored. Um so uh uh three of us went over there and then the other two went to a little planning building where they I guess they strategized uh Um the administration.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Okay, so the deadly force zone is where the uh security people are permitted to use deadly force against any intruders, right? Yes. And who who uh how many uh plow shares activists were there for this action? And who who were they other than the people you already named?

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah, so um Carmen Trata is a Catholic worker from New York, along with um Martha Hennessy, also a Catholic worker in New York, uh, granddaughter of Dorothy Day, um the founder of the Catholic worker movement. Um, yeah, uh Steve Kelly, the Jesuit uh priests, Liz McAllister, um and uh who else? Claire, uh Claire Grady from Ithaca.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Oh, yes, Claire from Ithaca.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Yes, the Grady sisters. Um yes, I would say her sister uh Ellen was an unindicted co-conspirator. We would never have been able to do anything without I didn't hear that.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Um okay, so um eventually there okay, so before the arrest, how much uh how much disarming did you do? So I I heard about spray painting messages. What were those messages and and and what else was done?

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah, just uh sword into plowshares, um love your enemies, uh, you know, biblical quotes, etc. Disarm and live. Um and yeah, Patrick and I um we actually brought a um what what was it? It was an uh a cordless angle grinder, okay? Because we thought we thought that we might be able to cut down one of these missiles, okay? Right. Uh one of these missile replicas. We thought we could like maybe cut through the base of it and knock it over. Uh when we went to to bang a hammer on the things, um, it was just solid concrete. And so uh we weren't able to do anything with that. Uh however, we did, yeah, we uh there was a whole lighting display uh kind of honoring these weapons, and we sort of we trashed it. Um yeah. Um again, the uh the the point of this is not dis is not destruction, okay? And certainly not vandalism, although that's certainly what you get charged with. It's we're talking about conversion, okay? These are uh, you know, these weapons are being worshipped, um, they're being honored, um, and they're they're they're mere uh development and possession, uh, as the uh the latest Pope, Pope Francis, has actually moved the church again uh into from where it was now the Pope, uh, and this was just a month before we did this action, the Pope declared that not only the um the use of nuclear weapons, but their building and possession is an objective moral evil. Okay, so we were kind of going with that as our marching orders as well, you know, that that this is.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Let's make it more persuasive because you know, uh no one thinks I don't think anyone thinks of the Pope is anything but part of the uh uh the world establishment.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Right. And I actually I quoted him at length in the in my sentencing statement there. Actually, I should say from the legal uh standpoint that we also came up with a new um argument for this trial. Okay based on it, it is a religious freedom argument, but this one was based on the uh religious freedom restoration act, okay? Rifra, as we call it.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

I've I've argued that for my client to have permission to wear a turban. He's a he's a member of the Sikh faith uh over the jail, and I won that argument.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Exactly, yeah. So um so we and and we noticed, of course, that uh first of all that the the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was it's kind of a conservative political agenda uh to it, as if, as if Christianity is under such persecution in this country that that we need we need something more than the constitutional amendment. So um, but anyway, we were we sort of wanted to turn that on its head because you know, of course, um what that says, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially it says like, you know, that that the government is not to intervene in people's uh the practice of people's sincerely held religious uh beliefs, okay. Um if the situation uh you know requires you know government intervention, then it must be done on the in with the least restrictive means available, okay? Right. Um and then there's a few other details about um about how they are and are not to intervene.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

We for this trial, were there any lawyers involved?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Yes, we had uh a team of lawyers that uh again that made this helped us make this argument pre-trial.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Were they standby lawyers? Were they involved directly or a a hybrid?

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Actually, this was a kind of a hybrid uh case for us. We had um uh uh two or three of us were pro se and the rest had lawyers. Um so peep and people had sort of individual lawyers, but we were able to uh get the case tried together.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Um this went in front of a jury.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yes. Now um court interestingly though, the uh the decision around the rifra became very difficult for the magistrate judge. Um they were having a lot of trouble.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

This trial went in front of a magistrate judge, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

We argued we we argued the uh the um right to use the rifra argument before a magistrate.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Um okay, but the but the jury trial was in front of a district court judge, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Yeah. Right. And so um this magistrate judge, I'm forgetting his name, a young younger guy who was uh Republican appointee, I think it was Trump appointee. Um and yeah, it was like our our argument was was pretty airtight, you know, in terms of, you know, if this riffer thing is real, then you must allow a jury to hear this argument, you know. And and again, I was um I I had refused bail again, you know, and as I told you, this this jail was a real uh a real bear. Um so but it took it literally it delayed the trial, uh, I believe it was seven months or so before the magistrate finally came out with a real lame excuse for not allowing us to to make the argument. And the reason was uh I don't remember. It was so esoteric.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Um how long was the jury trial and what was your sentence?

SPEAKER_01 51:00

The trial lasted uh five days, I believe. Um and uh yeah, it didn't take them long to convict us. We actually uh for this action we went in with GoPro cameras um and we filmed everything. So uh the jury was able to see all of that. Um and again, you know, we don't we don't go into these trials uh with our our own personal guilt or innocence as the main part of the agenda. Right. We're trying to argue the law and expose the law as um as being weaponized against uh the people. Um and so yeah, we were uh we were convicted in not too much time. I received a uh a 21-month sentence for that. Um and ended up and then Credit for Time Served. Credit for time served. Um you know it was a long journey because um uh I actually was diagnosed with cancer when I was in the in the jail pretrial. Wow. Um knowing that uh well trying to get uh adequate care from from the jail cell was uh became quickly impossible. So I ended up getting out on an ankle monitor for a few months in order to have some surgeries done.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

And then um and then after being out on on uh you know to get the surgeries done, um I went I went before the judge at a pretrial hearing and asked him, I said, you know, it it's kind of ridiculous that you keep me on an ankle monitor. And I was actually nervous about violating, you know, because it was so strict and everything, you know, and you know, so I was like, after having been out on an ankle monitor for four or five months going through cancer surgeries, I I went to the judge and said, you know, at the end of this pretrial hearing, I said, you know, can can I have this thing removed, please? I mean, it's it's obvious that I'm I'm going to return for trial. I mean, that's the whole point of a plowshare's action anyway. I've been on good behavior and everything else, right? And he said, and the judge said no. And so I said, okay. And then what I did was I revoked my own bail. The bail that had put up, been put up for me, somebody put up their house, you know, and I was like, I am not gonna um I'm not gonna risk uh you know, violating flu for anything like that. So I said, I'm going back, I want to go back to the to the jail.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Um okay, so this brings us to the the personal discomfort of doing these plowshares actions uh over your uh uh uh uh your your own selfish agenda. You you you had been diagnosed with uh cancer, and I'm gonna go to an extreme here. What's your reaction? I heard, I'm not gonna name names, I'm not gonna say anything that identifies it, but I heard about I don't know if it was a plowshares activist or a Catholic worker activist, but it was one of the radical Catholic peace activists who was raped in jail. So you've probably heard of this or something, these kind of things happening. So please share with the audience, you know, how do all you folks prepare yourselves that you might get very seriously assaulted, even sexually assaulted in jail, and and how do you prepare for it and how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Um well, you know, you prepare for it by uh by going deeper into nonviolence as a you know, as a personal lifestyle, you know, and a way of being in community, you know, and being with people. Um, and for me, that um, you know, the rest of my life with in the Catholic worker movement and all of that, it's kind of what we're all about is trying to create um, you know, uh safe, decriminalized, nonviolent spaces, you know, in which poor people can flourish, you know. Um, and so you know, it's what we do at home. Um, and then again, uh as you're saying before, you know, these these actions are so much more than just a you know a political, you know, symbolic action, political action. These these things are they they spring from uh from community. So we we try to, when we go into the jail setting, we uh we try to build the same kind of community, you know. We we come in uh you know disarmed, you know, as a posture, you know, we're that in in in in a jail setting, as you as you might imagine, there's uh, you know, it's kind of a jungle mentality. The strong survive, you have to, you know, put up a you know a front or a facade and stuff. We just kind of, you know, nonviolent activists sort of just abandon that. We kind of uh we we don't we don't defend ourselves, okay? Yes. We make it clear that we're not um you know, we're not gonna raise a hand to anybody um or anything like that. And it becomes pretty clear quickly, you know, I guess uh I guess it at my age now too, it's um it's a little easier maybe to move through move through the jail setting without you know presenting a threat, perceived threat to other people. When I was younger, um, yeah, I mean there were uh I could get into situations that were a little dicey here and there, but I've never really had um, certainly not with uh in terms of sexual abuse, I've never encountered that. Um, and I think it's it's pretty atypical for you know for people of privilege like ourselves who are doing, you know, sort of at least an altruistic act, even if it's illegal and stuff, you know, they typically don't put us in you know the high security or violent situations, uh, but that's not always the case.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Okay, so the name of this show is Beat the Prosecution. And I'm almost in a situation like I was with when I interviewed Mark Goldstone, who I'm sure you know about on our podcast. And Mark Mark said to me, if you're trying to learn how to beat the prosecution, why are you talking to me? Because the vast majority of his clients are political activists who admit what they did and and and aren't going to get acquitted, nonetheless. Uh please help out at the very least. If you can't help out my brother and sister criminal defense lawyers with ideas about how to win, if if even uh for breaking down barriers and uh and and communicating one out you know directly to the prosecutor, the judge, the the uh uh uh the the police, uh what can you at least share with with my clients, with the criminal defendants about you know how to deal with this? Okay, you've been arrested. How are you gonna deal with this psychological personally to get through this whole thing? Uh and do you do you have any tips about winning, even though uh the plowshares folks are always admitting their actions, but saying that they were uh they were out of necessity and can't be convicted, just like you can't be convicted for being involved with the uh Underground Railroad.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Yeah, well there I to me there's a few things that are very helpful in terms of addressing what you're saying. You know, it's like uh first of all, uh to me, uh there there's no um there's no doing this, and particularly with the with the jail situation and stuff, um, without sort of a deeply rooted spiritual uh life, you know. Right, be able to think beyond the uh you know the cell, you know, think beyond the locked door, etc. Um, and to be able to kind of you know train your mind and your sort of body and spirit to sort of um you know to to find a dwelling place, you know, a comfort zone within within that uh very chaotic kind of situation. To me, that kind of requires a bit of spiritual depth, whatever that means, um for folks. And the other thing I would say is um in terms of of you know uh beating the prosecution, you know, the way to beat the prosecution is to is to rise above it and have a maybe a longer view of of the situation and of history, you know, that what we're trying to do here is we're trying to form good law, okay? We're we're trying to get rid of bad law, you know, in order to do that, and I think, you know, I I I would think that, you know, in terms of a philosophy of law, which you probably take in law school, I mean, you probably uh at some point you got to realize that, you know, um, in order for for law to to get us to justice, people have to be willing to to expose the injustice of law by by subjecting themselves to it. Okay, yeah. So there's a you know, there's a there's a mission there, uh or a vocation there that that I take to, you know. I um, you know, and I I kind of trace it to my own personal history. You know, I I was um I was kind of buried in a family of six and you know, four boys, and uh I was bullied for most of my my childhood, you know, not just by a very uh very violent older brother, but um, but he used to contract meetings on me with his friends, you know. Um and you know, they would they would subject me to all kinds of abuse. So I kind of grew up with a with a feeling, with knowing that feeling of of being trapped, being paralyzed, being, you know, unable to get out from under, you know, an oppression or something, you know. So I've always had sort of a an affinity for the uh for the underdog and the and the person that's getting beaten on. And when it comes to law, I just there's nothing that makes me more uh angry than than the weaponization of law, particularly against the the most vulnerable and the poorest among us. Um and that's in large part what's going on in our legal system now. It's so disgusting to me. Um that we've we've managed to remove conscience from it almost completely, uh, the legal process.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Mark, uh wow, I wish we could go on for a few more hours, but I told you this would be for an hour. We've gone a few minutes over time, and I'm gonna be uh meeting with a client about his trial coming up, but I really appreciate your joining us, and I and I want you to have uh the last word, anything you you think the audience needs to know that they haven't uh heard yet. And I think that would be hours and hours. So, how about this at the very least? Please tell everybody your uh web address. Um tell them uh if there's somewhere on your website where they can make donations to your Catholic worker organization or any other organizations you think are worthy, and um and anything and anything else you think the audience should know that we haven't spoken about today.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Yeah, thanks. Um uh uh Amistad Catholic Worker has a has a pretty active Facebook page um which in which you can find out what's going on here and and figure out ways to uh you know if you want to make a donation. But I I wanted to say particularly that um what we're doing now since I got out of prison in in 21, we've really been moving locally into uh confronting the criminalization of homelessness. And specifically, we've started a project in our backyard. Uh we decided we've been trying to get the city of New Haven to designate a piece of public land on which people are allowed to set up tents without being arrested, uh, without being criminalized. And so uh, long story short, when COVID started, we we started setting up tent cities on public land, um uh which were very successful. We had a very uh successful one that was was up for three years. But we uh during that time we realized that the city was not going to change its policy, and they're eventually gonna bulldoze it and arrest people if you know, again, for being homeless. And so failing to get the policy change, we decided at the Amistad Catholic Worker to declare our own backyard to be public land. We started inviting people in um who are who are being uh bulldozed out of tent cities, and we say we're not giving you a tent, we're giving you a piece of land which has restored you to the status of neighbor. So this thing is now called in our backyard, it's called Rosette Neighborhood Village. We have six tiny homes that we've built, and we're trying to get permanent zoning approval for, and we have about 15 to 20 tents in the backyard.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

We're trying to get this legalized, um, and so we're doing this as a as a public action of radical hospitality. So to find out about it, and we the operating costs are very steep in terms of electricity and keeping the place warm in the winter. Go to rosettevillage.org. Rosettevillage.org if you're interested. You can get a full background on on the issue itself and then the project that we're doing here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

So thanks for baseball rosette R-O-S-E-T-T-E.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

That's correct. R R O S E T T E uh Village, rosettevillage.org.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:08

Excellent. Mark Colville, thanks so much for joining us. I have thoroughly not just enjoyed this, but I am invigorated. I am recharged, and I think a lot of the audience members will be the same. Uh definitely uh donate to the Amistad Catholic Worker House or the Catholic Worker Movement in general. Uh, this has been John Katz with Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense lawyer and DWI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. Mark, please stand by.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email and info at beattheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.