SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia Criminal Defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz to Beat the Prosecution. I'm a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Northern Virginia. I tell it to you all the time with mostly all of my guests, and it doesn't stop here. On the one hand, I guess I'm not supposed to be more excited to be speaking with one person than the other because we're all connected, but I'm still excited to be speaking with Venerable Fu Tinko John. I don't know if I pronounced her name correctly. She's going to let us know. Uh, Venerable is a uh monastic who's out on the West Coast. Uh she has worked with the Dalai Lama. She is a published author. Uh, she just inspires me so much to hear her voice. She's as tough as nails, in my view. And what does Venerable Fukin Choan and uh what she does, and you'll find out what she does, have to do with beating the prosecution. You already know. We've had three monastics on the show, or at least two. We've had my Tai Chi Chuan teacher. Part of beating the prosecution is about being mindful, being in the moment, being present, getting the gunk out with them. Oh, and also, trigger warning or whatever, uh, like with all my guests, I do not censor any of them. And uh maybe I'll even be hearing something new from Venerable about what our audience uh may not like to hear, but you gotta hear the good and the bad. Venerable, please introduce yourself to the audience.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Um, well, once upon a time, uh I grew up in um born in Chicago, grew up in Southern California, got out of there as quick as I could. And uh I as a young person, I really wondered, you know, what's the meaning of my life? Uh what's the value, you know, yeah, how what's the meaning of my life? I wasn't particularly interested in uh photocopying my parents' lives, uh, but you know, I wanted to understand what the world was about. Uh so I traveled for a long time. I graduated from UCLA, uh, and then I went to USC for some graduate work in education, and I was teaching the in the LA City schools, you know, uh elementary school, because I wanted to know what the meaning of life was. I wasn't quite sure, but it I knew it had something to do with helping other people. So I taught. And uh one summer vacation, I saw a flyer for meditation course. I was 24 years old at the time. I went. It was taught by two Tibetan lamas, and one of the first things they said was, uh, you don't have to believe anything we say. So I said, okay, good, I'll listen. And uh they really encouraged us to apply logic and reasoning to what they taught and also to try it out, try out the meditations. So I did that. And uh in the process, I decided I wanted to learn more, so I quit my job and went to Nepal, where the the llamas had a monastery.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

And uh, Venerable, is this a good time to uh talk about breathing or is that going to come a little later in our talk?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Oh, well, I started out different than I had and anticipated it all changed, John.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Well, I invite you to uh chat if this is a good time to do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Oh, okay. Okay, yeah. Because uh when John and I were talking at the beginning, uh he asked me to do some meditation, and I thought I said, I usually like to know the audience beforehand. Um, because sometimes I mean people who haven't meditated before sometimes don't feel so comfortable. Uh, but then I thought, okay, uh, we'll just set our motivation and then get into the talk. But you asked me a question first. And if the question was all about me, which is so I love talking about me. So I got distracted by that. Okay, so let's just start the session uh over again. Um, so I invite you just to to lower your eyes and breathe normally and just be aware of your breath as it comes in, as it goes out, and just let the mind relax while you do that. And then let's set our motivation for sharing the time together. And I think it would be safe to say that all of us would like to have quiet and peaceful minds ourselves, and we would also like to make a positive contribution to society and to the lives of other living beings. So, with that kind of motivation, one of compassion, wishing ourselves well, but especially wishing the countless other living beings that we share this planet with, that we share the universe with, wishing them all well. So to use the time we have together now to really grow as individuals and increase our wisdom and increase our compassion and increase our skill in acting in the world uh in ways that are beneficial. So with that kind of motivation, then let's continue on.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Is that a cue to me? Yes. Well, I want to go on for an hour on this, but I'll I'll do that one with one of your with one of your videos that's online. Thank you so much. That alone was wonderful. Venerable, um what is what is the name of the abbey where you're located and where can people find you online?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

It's called Srivasti Abbey. It's s-r-a-v a s t i abbey with a b-b-e-y. That's where I live. It's in eastern Washington state. And you can find me online uh at srivastiabbey.org and also at my uh website, which I should probably spell. It's a Tibetan name. Uh, so it's Tupton T-H U B T E N Shudran, C H O D R O N dot org. And Tupton Chudran is just it's one word, right? Yeah, it's just one word.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

And you're a published author. Is there a link to your uh books on one or both of those websites?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yes, on tuptonschudron.org. There's a whole section on my books. Now uh yes, and I should say when you sent me the the email inviting me uh to do this, I am in the middle now of editing a book about uh incarcerated people.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Wow, I didn't even know that.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, I was so surprised when I got the like what a coincidence. Yeah, because I've you know, for years I've done um prison work, which I never intended to do, but you know, when somebody wrote me and asked for help, of course I said yes, and then one thing led to another. Um, and so really having been in touch with many uh inmates and collecting stories for many of them about their experience in prison and how they've changed. Yeah. Uh and yeah, so that's the book I'm editing now.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Amazing. Well, I'll be the first purchase of that book. Okay. We're going to get back to that soon, but I do want to ask you how many monastics are at your abbey, and are they all women?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Uh we have 22 now. Yeah. 22. And uh we have four four of them are men. Yeah. So 18 women, four, four men. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

I don't want to get into the politics of the extent to which it's a challenge uh for women to be uh monastic leaders in Buddhism, but at least in in your lineage, is is that uncommon or more common or in the middle of the year?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

It's very it's it's very uncommon. It's very uncommon among the Tibetan women, very, very few teachers. Okay. Situations are the nuns are getting a better education now, but still, you know, not always out there teaching. Uh, hopefully that will increase in the future. So there's uh some Western nuns who are teaching. Um, it seems easier in Western culture for women to kind of enter that, whereas in Tibetan culture is quite definitely patriarchal.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

If I'm not mistaken, the first time I heard your name was before I saw you online. I think you were mentioned in the Jew and the Lotus, uh, which is Roger Kamenitz's great book about uh what happened when the uh Dalai Lama wanted to know more about how to uh survive and thrive in diaspora. So I invited a bunch of rabbis over, and and that was documented by Roger Kaminitz. And and what was what was your role uh with with that visit? And what was your role just in general uh over time over in Dharam Salah?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Well, I initially went to Dharm Salah to study, and so my role was primarily study and uh practice because there were very, very good teachers there, and there was nothing in the West at that time because this was uh the middle, mid-70s, you know, early 80s, there's not very little opportunity to learn Buddhism in the West. So I went to India and to Nepal. And uh when I you know there were several what we call Jew Bus, people like me who were born into Jewish families, but who now are Buddhist. Uh, and when we heard that there was a delegation of uh rabbis coming to talk to the Dalai Lama, uh, we were quite happy. And so they were staying at the guest house of the Dalai Lama's brother, and we uh a few of us Juboos were invited one Friday, uh, you know, because they were going to have uh Seder, uh not Seder, um Friday night dinner, and they had invited a number of Tibetan lamas, so we we were invited, and it was very interesting. This is very uh telling on cultural differences. So, as you know, do you want me to go on about this, John?

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Of course, I'm I'm riveted.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Okay, so you know that on Friday night to welcome the Sabbath, you you face Jerusalem, and so many of the rabbis were Orthodox, and so all the rest of them joined. There were maybe about 10 people, 12 people in the delegation, and so uh they they all faced uh Jerusalem, which in India you are facing west, okay, and the sun is setting at this time, and they were on a hill, it was really beautiful, and so uh the the rabbis were singing, they were dancing, they were swaying, you know, it was a festive welcome of the Sabbath, and then after that we went in for the dinner. So the Tibetan lamas were very curious because uh the Jews were facing the sun and singing and dancing, and they thought that the Jews were worshiping the sun.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

That's great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

And we had to explain, no, that's not what's happening. Yeah, oh so my my role specifically was just it wasn't a formal role, it was a very informal one. I wound up meditating with one of the rabbis every morning, and uh, and then later, you know, when they came back to the states, when I happened to be in the states, I I would contact some of them and uh also continue. I did some talks in the U.S. uh with another rabbi, you know, in the what in Washington state, trying to to do more interface like that with the Jewish community.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yes. Now um I often hear you talk about when I hear your um your dharma talks about get correct me if I'm wrong, bodhicitta, samsara. Um my my big one is non-duality, uh non-attachment, but I guess that's related at least to one or both of them. Please please tell the audience about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Okay. Well, first of all, from a Buddhist perspective, non-duality and non-attachment are very, very different things. Okay, non-attachment is having a very balanced mind towards an object or a person, not inflating uh the good qualities of that object or person, not in exaggerating the negative qualities. So, in other words, not falling into attachment, clinging, oh, they're so wonderful, I've got to be with them, and not falling into um anger. Yeah. So the when you don't fall into the attachment and the clinging and the um yeah, just the thing that is based on exaggerating somebody's good qualities or exaggerating the benefit that they could bring to the self, uh, that's called non-attachment. So it's a very balanced mind. Yeah. And so, of course, if we could have that balanced mind, we would automatically eliminate a lot of our problems because so many of our problems come because we exaggerate the good qualities of someone or something, and then I have to have it, I have to do this, it must be like this. Or we exaggerate the negative qualities in which it's all bad, it's just horrible, I've got to get away and you know, get rid of it. And so our life so often is like a yo-yo emotionally, you know, oh, something good, the yo-yo's up, oh, I had to meet that person, the yo-yo's down, up and down, whether we see something that we like, so we see something we don't like, and so uh, yeah, I mean, just mentally, emotionally, up and down all the time, and not seeing any of these things actually in a very accurate way, yeah, because of the exaggeration of either good qualities or bad bad qualities. Another thing that that uh interferes with seeing things in in uh as they are, is um that that we have quite a bias mind. Yeah, and there's so much preference for one thing, aversion to the next thing. And we think that that's reality, you know. If I like somebody, they are a good person, 100%. If I don't like somebody, my perception of that person is the one and only accurate perception, and that person is awful. Sign them off, and so you know, of course, not everybody sees the same things in the same way, so then we start quarreling with other people who see things differently, because uh our self-centered mind is very sure that I have the one right perception of this situation, and every if I'm angry, then anybody in this situation, any sane human being in this situation would be angry, just like I'm angry. If I have attachment and desire and craving and clinging, then we think, oh, this object definitely is so wonderful. Anyone in their right mind would see it like this. And so we relate to everything in terms of the self, and you know that we all do this now. What's the problem with it? Well, the problem is there are how many billion, over eight billion human beings on this planet. If we talk about animals and insects, I mean we get really high numbers, and and who's the one who's most important of all of these? It just happens to be me. Yeah, I am the center of the universe, and my happiness is most important, my suffering hurts more than anybody else's, whatever I think is correct. Yeah, I don't have faults, even if you if there is a fault and you notice it, you're not supposed to talk about it. Yeah, if we look, you know, we all have rules of the universe. We have a self-image, and this is my image, this is who I am, everybody should know that, everybody should treat me according to my image. Okay, so I know in the legal profession for sure that exists. I mean, in all professions, it does, yeah. And it's like, yeah, I am this kind of person, and I have this authority, and you should treat me accordingly. And the problem with the world is that everybody doesn't realize that we're the center of it, yeah. Because if only people, you know, were smarter and listened to all my advice and accepted all my opinions as true and real, then and did according to what I wanted, then everything would be fine. And the problem with the world is they they don't do this.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

No, they don't.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

No, not at all. And and then what we do, they don't do that, so then what do we do? We say, well, the world is stupid. Yeah, because if these people were smart, they would listen to me. True or not true, you know. If we look inside of ourselves, this is going on.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Okay, so and we all do it. So I'm talking very frankly. What I'm saying describes myself as well, you know, which is why I practice this path because I'm trying to overcome that, because I see that there's a lot of faults with that kind of view. It's not realistic, it's not beneficial, and it's very ingrained. So it's gonna take some some work over time, yeah, to reduce the self-centeredness.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Has that also covered my question about bodhicitta and samsara? I think those are the two of the uh okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

But bodhicitta. Okay, well, let's start with samsara. Samsara is uh the uh is the world is our experience now, which is an experience that is governed by mental afflictions, chiefly ignorance, clinging attachment, and hostility or animosity, anger. Um, and the so our our existence is influenced, controlled by the mental afflictions and by karma. And what I mean here by karma is our actions of body, speech, and mind that leave uh, for lack of a better word, seeds on our mental consciousness that will influence what we experience in the future, and so um from a Buddhist viewpoint, there's things are not fated, fated, you know, and predestined, but they also aren't haphazard and accidental. So things happen uh dependent on other factors, yeah. So that the but that's this the world, our state of being right now, samsara. Um, and it's an unsatisfactory state because we're uh constantly getting born, getting sick, getting old, and dying. And this is just the very natural occurrence within cyclic existence, what happens to all of us, and it's under the influence of mental afflictions and karma or actions. So it's an unsatisfactory state, and you know, everybody has problems, everybody has some kind of suffering. Uh, you know, in wealthy countries we have our own particular kinds of suffering, um, but everybody, no matter wealthy or not wealthy, is subject to aging, sickness, and death. Uh, no way around that. I don't care how many bodies they freeze with chyrogenics and hope to defrost at a later time. Um, you know, that can't change how the how samsara operates. But there is an alternative, and that the alternative is what we call nirvana, and it's a state free from all these mental afflictions and free from being under the influence of you know our previous actions. So uh so the path we follow is one of developing wisdom to understand how things exist and developing compassion, seeing that all other living beings, no matter what life form they're in, just want to be happy, they don't want to suffer, they're exactly like me. And uh so having not just empathy, understanding their situation, but seeing that we're all in this mess together, and we can we understand others' situation very deeply that you know you can't help but have compassion. And uh we define compassion as the wish for beings to have to be free of suffering and its causes, and we say love is the wish for them to have happiness and its causes. So um, yes, we try and develop our wisdom, our compassion, and through the wisdom that sees how things actually exist, then we can cut the ignorance, which is the root of the clinging, the attachment, the anger, jealousy, pride, arrogance, laziness, all you know, lack of integrity, all these kinds of things. And so in that way we can free our mind uh from samsara, attain nirvana, but also, you know, work for the benefit of other living beings and wanting them to attain a state of nirvana, also. Yeah, so that's that's uh a very quick explanation.

unknown 28:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Well, this is great. And what about bodhicitta? Have have you covered bodhicitta?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, bodhisattva when your compassion becomes very strong, yeah, and you really want to engage, you want to do something to benefit sentient beings, do something to lead them to awakening. Then when you look around and you say, Well, am I qualified to do that? Well, no, you know, my own mind is full of defilements, and you know, it would be like the blind leading the blind. And so, who has that ability to lead sentient beings most effectively? It's you know, a fully enlightened being, a Buddha. And so at that point, you you generate the wish to attain or the aspiration to attain full awakening in order to benefit all sentient beings most effectively, and that is bodhicitta, that motivation, that aspiration.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Got it. Now, is there reincarnation? And if there is, if we're all connected, do we really come back as our individual being and whatever kind of uh animal fly, a bug, or whatever it is, or do we come back as is just the part of our selves that dies and then gets reborn?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Well, when we die, we're dead, are we? It isn't that your your arm dies and the rest of you keeps on, you know. When the body dies, the the life is finished. Okay, the body gets recycled in nature. Okay. The the worms have a good lunch, yeah, or else they put you in in a crypt of some sort where the worms can't get to you. But you know, personally speaking, I would like my body to be useful after I die. So, you know, offer it to the worms. Um, okay, so the body dies, but the consciousness, which is not material, the body is material, it's matter, the mind, the consciousness, that part of us that feels, thinks, experiences, the part that makes the difference between a living being and a corpse. Yeah, so that the consciousness, when it separates from the body, body's getting recycled in nature, the consciousness then will go on and uh as influenced by our karma and as influenced by what is going on in our mind during the death process, then we will be attracted to another body. Yeah, and so rebirth occurs in that way. Yeah, and so part of uh our aspiration is to stop that kind of uncontrolled rebirth. You know, people have this idea when you talk of rebirth, they have this image that you're sitting on some cloud looking down, saying, okay, I'm accepting applications for mom and dad now, please apply. Um, it's not like that. We don't sit there and you know, choose our parents with some kind of um reason or anything like that. It's rather at the time of death, you know, by the force of craving, clinging, the karma that's ripening, then we are pushed, you know, uh because we're attracted, we're clinging to have another body and another life. Okay, so most of us are taking what we call uncontrolled rebirth. As somebody advances on the path, then they actually can uh uh direct their rebirth. But this is an attainment for people who are quite high on the path. And this is uh when you hear about the Dalai Lama being the 14th Dalai Lama, okay, what that means is that, well, first of all, identifying the incarnations of different uh spiritual masters is something that's done uniquely in the Tibetan tradition. The other forms of Buddhism don't do this. But the idea is that if you can find people who are really good teachers and then identify them again in their next rebirth when they're children, then they can have a really, really good education and they can be brought up to be very good teachers again. Okay, so that's the situation of the Dalai Lama and several of my other teachers. This is their situation too. So um, yeah, they they would take rebirth by the force of their compassion.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yes. Now I was told uh last week when we scheduled this talk that um if I had you on, my listeners would hear some things they didn't like. Now, have they heard that yet? And if not, I I'm I'm waiting with painted breath to hear this. And it's probably stuff I've heard before, but I'll find that out.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Okay, well, so far I may have said something they didn't like, but I didn't think that it was something they didn't they wouldn't like. So let me let me tell you the things that I thought might push a few buttons. So um, as it happened, uh, you know, when you asked me to do the talk, uh around that time I had read an article in the New York Times. And so I want to read you uh a quote because you know, the title of your broadcast is um what is it, defeating Beat the Prosecution. Yeah, beat the prosecution. Okay. So so that is a uh that's just based on win-win. I mean, on me and what I want and you know how I see things. I'm gonna come out on top. I don't care whether the clients are telling me the truth or not the truth, whether it would be good for them to be free or better for them to be in prison for a while. I don't care about any of that. I want to be the prosecution so I can be known as a very good trial lawyer, so I can have more clients come to me so I can make more money, so my reputation will be better. Um, I I should maybe tell you that I was married to a lawyer before I became a nun. I just um okay, but so let me read you this quote that I read in the New York Times. Um it was just I forget the name of the person who who wrote it, okay. But it says, nearly 90 years ago, in a case involving prosecuted prosecutorial misconduct, the Supreme Court laid down its view of a prosecutor's duty, one that has been widely repeated in court decisions ever since. The prosecution's interest in criminal prosecution, the court wrote succinctly, is not that it shall win a case, but that justice be done. Oh, what does that have to do with beating the prosecution? That's the role of the prosecutor. Elaborating on that proposition, the court went on to say that while a prosecutor may strike hard blows, he is not, he or she is not at liberty to fight strike foul ones. It is as much uh their duty to refrain from improper methods calculated to produce a wrongful conviction as it is to use every legitimate means to bring about a just one. So reading that and then hearing beat the prosecution, uh there was some discrepancy there. Okay, yeah, so I just thought I would bring that up.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Well, I I I know I know that aspirates you're talking about, and I aspirations aren't often aren't met, uh uh, venerable, and uh it gets violated all the time by prosecutors. And if you listen to uh my podcast interview with Steve Bright, for instance, who's a great uh death penalty defender, uh, you'll hear all about all these times the prosecutors knowingly hide the ball when they're not supposed to, they're not supposed to hide exculpatory evidence, according to the U.S. Supreme Court's Brady versus Maryland decision, and they're not supposed to let DNA evidence get contaminated and lost, and that happens. I understand what you're saying. Now, beat the prosecution for me uh still has me keep in mind what one of the greatest Tai Chi Khan practitioners in the area uh said to me when I was doing push-hands practice with them over the summer after I stayed away from it after COVID. But my teacher said to me, invest in loss, which includes being risking catching something. And he said to me, I'm gonna tell you why it's so easy for me to push you. It's because you're focused on winning. So when I talk about beating the prosecution, at best I'm talking about being calm in the eye of the storm and harmonizing a disharmonious situation. And for me, that is beating the prosecution. It's not about beating the prosecutor for the purpose of beating the prosecutor, it's about harmonizing a disharmonious situation for my client and being as merciless to the opposition as I have to without causing any more, inflicting any more pain or punishment on the other side that I need to. I mean, it's kind of like a samurai. I mean, it's very, very ironic that uh the the best samurais don't lose their head if they're in the moment and in the present and not thinking about their next move. Now, I would imagine that anything about violence isn't physical violence, doesn't isn't your cup of tea. Uh, I don't know what you might think about martial arts, though, which is what I do. Um, so I appreciate that. I I thought you were gonna come come with a big whammy to me, but no, you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Well, how about changing the title of your pod podcast from Beat the Prosecution to Harmonize the Situation?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Um I not that one, but but I'll think about it. But look, let let's let's bring this into restorative justice. You know, you probably know about restorative justice. I strongly believe in it. I wish that I could convince more prosecutors and complainants to allege victims to do it. I mean, she's one of the greatest proponents of it. She's an admitted victim of uh sexual abuse by her father. She went to Harvard Law School and she forwent, you know, being able to get the big bucks from just going to Harvard Law School with, you know, writing her own ticket to be being one of the leaders, for instance, of the restorative justice movement. Uh, I just wish that uh she was available to be my restorative justice leader, but she has her fingers in other pies. But her organization does have folks that will that will take up the mantle. I mean, I believe in this very strongly. Now, my teacher, Junya Suda, who's a nipponzan myohoji and Buddhist nun, she's my main peace teacher. And uh, I don't know if I already showed you her Odamoku uh back there in Amon Yohoran Geko. There you go. She has said, well, before the uh Westerners came over to uh to the Americas, we didn't have prisons, we didn't have cages. What is your view, or do you have a view about whether we're caging people to sugar happily? And I think we are. Should there be cages at all, and under what circumstances should they be used and for how long?

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Okay. Um, so um my personal opinion um is that you have to look at a case-by-pay case uh situation, and if somebody's mind and their behavior is so uncontrolled that they are a danger to others and at the same time a danger to themselves because they're creating so much negative karma, then to to help that person to not create that karma, to give them some respite, then confining them uh could be something that is good for them. Yeah, at the same time, not having an attitude of punishing, because if you know, punishing people may change their behavior, but they change it out of fear, they don't change it because of wisdom, yeah. So uh sometimes punish punishment may be the only way to get a message through to somebody that you know their behavior needs to really improve. Um, but otherwise, I think you know, locking people up would be because from a Buddhist viewpoint, we say that when you harm somebody else, you're also harming yourself. Because when you harm somebody else, it's done with a negative intention. So you're also planting the seeds of negative karma on your own mindstream that will result in your own suffering and pain in the future. So that's why we say when you harm somebody else, you're also harming yourself, even though you may not experience the harm directly. Of course, getting imprisoned, you know, you experience some suffering right away. But um I'm very much in favor of restorative justice. Um, some of the prisoners that I've corresponded with have participated in that program, and they've told me how healing it is. And uh, you know, it's a delicate thing for on both sides. Yeah, it's hard for victims to face perpetrators, but the way they have it done in the prisons is you don't uh the the uh perpetrators don't see the victims of their specific crimes, but they see The victims of crimes similar to what they did that were done by somebody else. Okay. And so it's difficult for the victims to see perpetrators. It's difficult for the perpetrators to um to really get in touch with what was going on in their mind when they did that, and with the anger they experienced for being locked up and punished afterwards. Um, you know, when what they really need is programs like restorative justice, like meditation, like um they have some prisons have really good programs, many of them don't because of budget cuts. But um these programs really, really help people. And so that makes it much easier for you know for the prisoners to be open and accepting. Um yeah, and so it has really good results.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

What type of work have you been doing with inmates?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Um, mostly corresponding. They would write and they're interested in Buddhism and they want to learn about Buddhism. So Buddhism uh, you know, yes, on one hand it's a religion, but it's also an ethical code, it's also um a path to practice to develop wisdom and compassion. So um I'll I teach, you know, I'll send them books and uh and I do prison visits when I can. So, you know, some uh prisons have Buddhist groups, and so you know you can go in as a volunteer and teach them, uh, or go in as a guest teacher. Um, it's not always so easy for the Buddhists in prison because most of the chaplains are Christian. So uh, you know, yeah. I went to to one uh prison to give a talk to the Buddhist group, and the the chaplain tried to convert me. You know, it was really it was pretty strange, but I had a good very good meeting with the Buddhist group. So um it's mostly along that level of teaching Buddhism, but in the course of teaching Buddhism, people have to talk about what's going on inside, yes, and they have you know, they have to talk about their feelings and their emotions and their perspectives on life and their views and their opinions. So everything comes out. And I also um uh, you know, when somebody I start a new correspondence, I always ask them, you know, how they got what happened that they got imprisoned. Yeah, some people who do prison work say no, you you shouldn't ask people what what they did. Um, but I do, um, and I want to know. And for me, it's also a test of that person's honesty. Yes, because if somebody is writing me and asking me for help, but they're not honest, right? Then then I can't really help very much. Yeah. Uh so the yeah, so this is a good way to get people to open up and and then I'll respond and ask them questions. And you know, everybody's very different. So some people will get into long uh discussions maybe about racism or you know, kind of topics that that people are talking about, um, and per that pertain, you know, if somebody's from a minority, they may want to talk about that. Um, with other people, then talking more about uh, you know, in the correspondence, how they grew up, what they were thinking.

unknown 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

So it really depends on on the individual.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

And when you go into the detention facilities, I take it that you do include a uh uh some some level of meditation practice?

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Yes, yeah. John, I can't see you. You're you're oh, there you are.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Here I am. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Okay, yeah, so I do include some meditation. Um, in Buddhism, there's many, many different kinds of meditation. So when the people are very uh the beginning, I just teach very simple breathing meditation, and then from there, sometimes we can get into visualization, we can get into what we call checking meditation, analytical meditation. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Okay, so what is visualization and what is uh visualization meditation and what is analytical meditation?

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Okay, well, visualization is for example, um, okay, here's one meditation I teach. I'm just teaching the bare very bare bones in a very simple way, is uh I ask people to imagine the figure of the Buddha in front of them, not a statue, but think of the Buddha as a living being with a body made of light. And he's looking at you with compassion and acceptance, and that already for people who are imprisoned, and actually for people in general in society, to imagine somebody looking at you with compassion and acceptance. For some people, that's really hard to imagine, yeah, because in the West, our Western world, no matter how uh successful you are in society standards, so often underneath there's the feeling of I'm not good enough, yeah. And you know, uh something's wrong with me, and yeah, other people are better than me, and yeah, self so much self-deprecation, self-hatred. So just asking them to think of the Buddha, looking at them with compassion and acceptance is a big thing, and then from there, uh ask, you know, telling them to imagine, you know, because the Buddha's body is made of light, that light emanates from the Buddha's body and it comes into you, you know, through the crown of your head and it fills every part of your body, and it um makes your mind very peaceful, it purifies all the negativity, uh, anything you don't feel good about doing, any guilt you have or remorse you have, you know, all of this is purified, all this low self-esteem is purified. Um, you know, and I have them do that for a while. And, you know, if if uh imagining the Buddha in the space in front is, you know, they don't want to do that. I said, then just imagine a ball of light. Yeah. And then from the ball of light, this light's coming in and purifying you. And uh, yes, the light does two functions. One, it purifies, you know, your mistakes, the things you don't like about yourself. And two, it um brings with it the understandings and the qualities that you really would like to develop. So you imagine, you know, this coming in, and and uh that is can be something very, very helpful for people because it pulls it pulls you out of your usual way of thinking of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

Yes. Excellent. Now, does that include we've talked about analytical meditation?

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Analytical meditation is different. This is when we would take a teaching given by the Buddha, and we would think about different points. Like we might have an outline of uh a teaching about that topic, and then we would really contemplate each point in the outline and come to a conclusion. So, for example, let's say uh, you know, everybody has anger, uh, then you know you want to do an analytical meditation on fortitude, on patience, which is the opposite of anger. So you would start out maybe with a little bit of breathing to calm the mind, uh, and then uh think about anger. So one of the questions you would ask yourself in your meditation is, okay, uh, am I happy when I'm angry? In other words, is anger conducive to human happiness? No, no, then why am I so hooked on being angry? And you know, and I want uh retaliation, I want to get even, you know, and that's all all anger, and I hold grudges like crazy, that's anger. And if anger doesn't make me happy, you know, what's going on? But then you start to to look and you see, well, actually, you know, yes, anger makes me unhappy, but you know, if I can get my revenge even, then I will feel justice has been done, I will feel good, and then you stop and you say, Okay, I I get my revenge, somebody else is suffering now. Do I respect myself as a human being because I rejoice at causing other people suffering? Yeah, yes, well, you know, is this the kind of human being that I want to be? Do I have self-respect when I act, you know, act out my grudges and cause others pain? And you begin to see, you know, that isn't working as a strategy for happiness.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Exactly. And uh my clients charge with assault of behavior. I tell them all to do an anger management program, and I'm gonna be interested in in perhaps do one of those online anger management class myself to compare notes between what they do and what you do. And I have fun there's gonna be a dichotomy, so uh maybe we can get it uh veered towards uh your approach as well. Um, we are just one minute from closing time, and if I had my permission, which I don't have, I'd I'd ask to go on and on with you. But one day we'll even meet in person. Venerable, what an amazing time I've had with you. I remember I found your email address a few years ago. I told you how I was born Jewish and then I'm into Buddhism. And you worked in in your response, you worked in something about uh the relationship between Shav, which is popular with uh, I guess a lot of Ashkenazi Jews and some sort of cabbage dish in the Buddhist realm, but how it's it's just not all separated and there's so much that's connected. Thank you so much. I got so much more out of this discussion than I ever expected. And even though I think we've just scratched the surface and got in deep as well. Thank you so much. Is there any parting words you have for everybody before we sign off that you haven't already covered?

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Be kind, be kind, be kind to other human beings. If you're kind, you will feel better about yourself, you will get along better with others, you will create less negativity in the world, less negative karma, and being kind feels good.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Yes. Everybody, I'm gonna give a plug that venerable won't. Um, I encourage everyone to do what I'm gonna do once we uh sign off tonight. I'm gonna donate, make another donation to Sravasti Abbey Abbey. Please remind me that's strivastiabbey.org, Venerable. Thank you so much. Everybody, this has been uh John Katz with Beat the Prosecution. I have not changed the name yet. I am a criminal defense for a northern Virginia Venerable. Please stand by.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at infobeatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.