SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Northern Virginia. I am totally excited to have our guest today, Nikki Megafori. She will tell me if I pronounced her name correctly at all. I first met her and last spoke with her nine years ago. You've heard me speak before, I think, about one or two lawyers' uh mindfulness, contemplative lawyers' retreats. And this one where I met Nikki, uh, no offense to her, but when I found out that uh Zukezo Norman Fisher, who was an abbot at the San Francisco Zen Center, which would have been following in the footsteps at some point of Shun Shunrio Suzuki. I think if I got that right, who Suzuki Rashi. There you go. Uh who wrote um uh Beginner's Mind or whatever mine.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Uh then mind Beginner's Mind, John.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

There you go. Nikki will uh uh will uh confirm uh on that. Uh but I found out that he was gonna be at uh the Garrison Institute for a lawyers gathering, a long weekend in 2015. And I signed right up, and Nikki was there, and Charlie Halbron and some other people, and uh it was confirmed to me that the only time I'd be able to speak was in group discussion and also during question and answer. So, how I enjoyed myself, someone as talkative as I, I did. And with that, Nikki, please introduce yourself to everybody.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Hi, John. It's good to see you after after nine years, um, almost a decade, pretty wild, hey. Um gosh, okay, introducing myself. Well, I'm Nikki Murgafori. I um um I teach um uh mindfulness, meditation, and uh in in in various forms. Actually, there's two ways that I show up in the world, both teaching mindfulness, compassion cultivation, um uh Buddhist practices, um, and also I'm an AI scientist. I'm an artificial intelligence scientist, I have a PhD in computer science from Berkeley. I've done research for many years. So I wear two hats in the world. Um, and there's a lot more to say um about the things I do. Maybe I'll just say one more thing about what in the context in which we're speaking right now is um uh uh the um the meditative, the reflective um uh teachings and practices that I bring to the world, both uh in on retreats as well as courses. And I also teach mindful leadership um curriculum, which I've taught for the past five years, four years, five years. Um, so there are many different ways that that these contemplative practices I found both helpful for myself in my own life and work and how they really impact and shift and change um people that I've had the privilege to support over the many years, over a decade.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

And thank you on that. Now, uh those who have listened to all my podcasts know that we've already had a Buddhist monk, uh Claude Anshan Thomas, a Buddhist nun, uh uh Junya Suda on. Um uh we've had my uh my martial arts teacher, Tai Chi Kong, Tai Chi Chuan teacher. So I'm not turning this into a Buddhist podcast, I'm not turning this into an Eastern podcast, but what I thought would be uh helpful with uh Nikki's ideas and voice would be to take it beyond what uh Claude Ansh and Thomas was talking about, which was uh having gone through hell uh as a combat veteran in in Vietnam and then coming back and helping the veterans and everyone else. Uh I would like to find out, Nikki, was that your only time helping out lawyers at that retreat nine years ago? Or is this something that's common with you?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, yeah. So I'll bring more context to that. Um so when we met in 2015 at Garrison Institute, uh that short retreat, co-teaching with Norman Fisher. And and I would have signed up if I heard Norman Fisher was teaching too, John. I so uh and uh so that was the um the only time that I've taught a lawyer specific or a a retreat, a silent meditation retreat specifically designed for lawyers. And I was invited by uh Charlie and and and and yeah, basically the the teaching team was put together, Norman and me at the time. But since then, um I've been teaching, of course, many, many retreats and classes and and many lawyers, of course, many doctors, lawyers, many, many professionals of all walks of life um have um have come through the um the retreats that I've taught. And and actually ever since I've taught that lawyer-specific retreat, I've had a um uh an affinity. So when I and on silent retreats, when for example, we teach your teaching team, we're trying to figure out who's going to have one-on-one um meetings and conversations with with whom when I see somebody's a lawyer, um, oh yeah, this this person, I'd like to, you know, but put them in my group, put them in my group. So so that's that's what's been happening, John, as an aftermath of that retreat.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

So, Nikki, what's brought you to this uh spiritual mindfulness mindfulness path, whatever you call it, and to what extent did it start before you left Iran or only after you departed?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah, yeah, right. So um that's a big question. I'll give some history there. So I was born in Tehran, Iran, and I left when I was 16 years old. And um, so um I would say that growing up, um, I was both very um um much interested in math and physics and and and a very brainy kid, um, or a nerd, you know, that there's so many different words that we can use, and and I guess nerds have taken the word back now. It's a badge of honor nowadays. Um, and also I did have a um um well, spiritual is an interesting word to use, but but um a we can call it spiritual bent, or we can also call it a um an inquisitive bent about what is this? So what is this life? It's more along the lines of perhaps existential quests, existential questioning. What is this? So I was very philosophical um reading, discussing, debating, trying to think about what is this? Reading the poetry of Rumi and Hafez and Omar Chayam and Farsi, of course, in my language, um, the original language in which they were written when I was a kid. And uh trying to get like, why am I doing this? What is this? Where have I come from? Where am I going? And and you know, religion had some answers, but not quite satisfying, perhaps. So that that uh existential questioning continued with me. And and um when I was older, there were various events in my life that that led me to explore um meditation in at first in a secular way. So uh Herbert Benson had written this book, He Was a Doctor, yeah, or The Relaxation Response. And I was in my twenties when I read that, in my early 20s, and and I was practicing basically breath meditation uh from this very secular, very scientific perspective. Um, I was doing some guided imagery um at the time. Um so so the way that I was uh reconnected with those practices was at the time um my my late husband, my my husband at the time, he got cancer. We were both very, very young. So we were finding uh ways to help and support ourselves with with the the news and and and the the difficulty of going through cancer treatment and meditation was recommended to him, to us, so we did it together. There was guided visualization, etc. So that's when in in my 20s I re reconnected with with what I didn't think it was a spiritual practice at the time, it was just as a way to cope with with life. And um, and years later, so so I could uh I did all these practices and they were very supportive and helpful, but again, not necessarily with a spiritual dimension. And yet I can now I can see that all of these practices bring you home to yourself. So they of course they have a spiritual dimension, whether or not the person who's doing them, you know, the the little 20-year-old me didn't really know, but it was connecting me deeply to myself and coming back to the centeredness and ground of being. And then years later, um in my late 20s, early 30s, um, what led me to this particular tradition of Buddhism, which is Theravada Buddhism. Um, for those who might have heard of it, and if they haven't heard of it, um, it's an early school. It's basically, if you've heard of uh, you know, John Caputson, or our various mindfulness practices are drawn from the early, primarily from the early school teachings. Of course, they're also present in the later school teachings called Mahayana, Zen, and also present in the the later, the third school of teachings, which is Tibetan with Dalai Lama. So these are different schools, anyway, just a little bit of context here. So I was introduced to uh the deeper practice, the uh deeper meditative practices, because I was very sick. I I had finished my uh PhD at Berkeley and and uh in computer science and AI uh specifically at the time when AI wasn't even cool. It was the winter of AI anyway. And I was um working at a startup company in Silicon Valley, and I got really, really sick for about a year. And um yeah, this dear friend of mine at the time told me about um silent meditation retreats that she had sat.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Silence meditation retreats.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Silent, silent, oh silent, yeah, a little different. Okay, silent, yeah. The one that you sat. Remember, John? There was silent, right? Plenty of silence. Plenty of silence. We'll get to silence in a moment because that's one of the questions that you sent me in the possible list of questions. We're gonna get to silence in a moment. So silent meditation retreat. Anyway, um, so long story short, I I did a day-long, uh one-day meditation retreat and learned how to meditate. And two weeks later, I went to to a retreat held at Spirit Rock Meditation Center, where now I'm a stewarding teacher and part of the board of directors. And I sat my first 10-day silent meditation retreat. I just jumped in head first. I didn't know what to expect. I just, you know, I trusted this friend. She wanted what was best for me. I I knew that. And so I completely I jumped in and and uh I was hooked. It was um but that retreat changed my life, and and then I continue to sit more and more retreats, and so much happened on that retreat. We don't have time, I'm not gonna go there, but but but briefly I yeah, so much, so much happened on this retreat. Uh and silence, and maybe I'll just say something about silence since we've alluded to it. Um so what's amazing about silence, especially availing oneself of of not talking, of silence, of the the community. And what happens on a meditation, on a silent meditation retreat, is um, you know, there you get instruction, so they're talking. So the the teachers are talking, you know, for an hour or two a day or however long it is, and um, and you're you're not alone. You're having meals as you remember with everybody else, you're sitting in the hall, meditating, you're walking with them, sitting with them, and yet you're not having this these conversations, these regular conversations of hey, how are you? How's it going? So you don't have to wear on wear your social mask, right? You don't have to be anybody, you can just relax for a few days, you can just put it all down and and be with yourself, connect with yourself, come home to yourself. And at first, what what most people notice the first insight and most people have on retreats, and and even if you've been meditating at all, even for five-10 minutes, the first insight is um my mind, it doesn't shut up, it's just it's going everywhere. So we just mind monkey mind, exactly. We have a term for that. We have a we have a uh specialized term for that monkey mind, it's just jumping um one branch to the next to the next to the next.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Well, Nikki, what I just learned about you that I didn't know, and how do I even follow up with that? I didn't know that uh the man you were married to had passed away. Yeah, I didn't know that you were very sick. Um you know, uh it's not enough for me to say you have my empathy, but you have my understanding. Yeah, and it it helps the audience understand a little more about the path that you took to get here. Um yeah, I think that's a good idea. The person I wanted you uh to bring on the show is so many of my colleagues are suffering, Nikki, and they're not gonna reveal it, especially maybe I I don't want to genderize it, but I think it's a lot harder in general for the men to do it than the women. We did have a cherished colleague across the street from me. You're looking at the courthouse behind me, Nikki. Uh we're on Zoom here, uh, who shot himself dead around uh three years ago, within 24 or 48 hours after I saw him on the third floor of the courthouse, and where everything seemed honky-dory to him. Yeah. We have our clients, many of them who were addicted to drugs, alcohol, suicidal, depressed, ADHD, the whole thing. And uh thus far, my um, I would say my meditated meditation type or contemplative, uh guest, the the Buddhist monk, the the Buddhist nun, they haven't helped me zero in enough on this, I think, uh uh about how they can help themselves. But then again, uh Ram Das says uh you got to work on yourself, or said you have to work on yourself to help other people. And Haliakala Hulen, uh the late uh proponent of uh self-identity thuho Pono Pono said uh you don't have to try to help uh change each uh other people, you just work on yourself. Yeah so what do you say about that mouthful? Uh Nikki, do we just work on ourselves or we just wait for other people to come to us to say, hey, how do you do it?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, yeah, the question. So so I'll pick the thread from um many things in what you said. So first I appreciate your your understanding and and and you know, it's it's so important. Um we we all have challenges in our lives. We all do. And the what you were mentioning about colleagues and and clients, etc. We all have challenges in our lives. It's just that um sometimes perhaps we we um feel ashamed of our suffering or we hide it and we try to deal with it. I think it's best praised as um don't compare your insides to other people's outsides. Because on the outside, you know, we present, and of course, you know, there's a lot of strength, there's a lot of capacity, there's a lot of goodness, beauty, there's a lot of good and strength that we have in the world, but but also there are challenges that we have, there are vulnerabilities that we have, and we all have them. And that's what I'll tell you what I love about the Buddhist teachings and the Buddhist path. And I'm not talking about parcelitizing, and I'm just telling you what I fell in love with when I when I, as a scientist, and you know, I'm a hardcore scientist, I was trained in science, and uh, what I really love about these these teachings is that hey, um it's challenges, uh, what's called, you know, suffering, difficulty, it's part of human life. It's not like you are doing it wrong. There is nothing wrong with you. If you're having and and and suffering, that seems like a big word, but we can call it stress, we can call it challenge, we can call it anything. It happens to everyone. It actually, when you open up to acknowledging that just like me, everybody has challenges, or just like everybody else, I have challenges, it becomes a springboard for common humanity. You you don't feel so separate, separated from other people. You feel, in fact, closer to everyone else. And I would say that understanding of common humanity, that I'm just a human being here, doing my best. And so is everybody else. Given all the causes and conditions of my birth, the genes that I inherited, the the uh sociolocation I inherited, I didn't choose any of this. You know, before I was born, nobody gave me a menu, like, where do you want to be born? Where do you want? Like none of that. The the um so the cause and conditions of my birth, my experiences, the the historic the history, the zeitgeist that I inherited, that for this being that came to being in that moment in time, all the historical, familial, uh, the culture, the all the experience that this particular unique person who is me has had getting to this point in their life, you know, stepping out of ourselves and looking at ourselves and marveling, wow, I am a product, I, whoever I this this person is, this person is a product of so many things that just beyond quote unquote my control. And here I am uh in the human body that's aging and falling sick and do, you know, has pains and aches. We all have human bodies. This being with me is doing their best. And guess what? So is everybody else, so is everybody else, and that that understanding of common humanity, I would say, is a primary understanding that then allows us to open up to others, to open up to ourselves, first of all. First, yeah, that's the first thing. Open up to to ourselves to really embrace our own humanity, our own mistakes, um, with kindness, with compassion. Right. Um and and there's so much more to be said about compassion. It doesn't make you soft, it doesn't make you gullible, it doesn't make you any of that. It just makes you not be hard, overly hard on yourself and hard on others. Still, you can achieve excellence, etc., etc. But it just shifts your perspective into more ease, into more understanding for yourself and for the world. And actually, you can serve, you we can serve the world um much more effectively um from a stance of from a compassionate understanding and um and mindful stance. We just it it it shifts our whole perspective on the world. Why are we doing this? I mean, none of us gets out of here alive, right? And um, so and saying that, I'm gonna put an asterisk because I teach a lot also on mindfulness of death, mindfulness of mortality. Um, that's one of my specialties, expertise. Um, I love teaching retreats and courses on that. And that really is a way to bring the end and and uh bring the end forward so that we it helps us live more authentically, more fully. More kindly, compassionate, just way to live according to our values, really who we want to be in the world, instead of just showing up in you know in ways that at the end of life people look back and are not very happy about. Broken relationships, broken, um, yeah. So there's a lot there. I'm gonna pause, John. I don't know which direction you want to go for the sake of your audience.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Uh several important things came up uh in my mind, uh, plus what you said there, uh, talking about compassion, death, uh, just uh caring about people. So, of course, then uh also the message from uh uh Ram Das, Sahali Kalahu Lin, Junya Suda, so many others is just to be present with others. Uh that that was a big one about uh uh Bob Jong Sunim, the the the famous Buddhist, uh late Buddhist monk in in Korea. He said, you know, if if you just keep talking, talking, talking, you're just given verbal diarrhea, your your your words haven't had a chance to to develop. And um yeah, so the this this compassion thing really relates to my Tai Chi martial art, which is uh being powerfully soft if we're brittle, if we're hard, we're not gonna, you know, even from a selfish standpoint, we're not gonna be able to sense what's going on. We're not gonna be able to deal with the opponent, going to the beat the prosecution uh title of my podcast with our loved ones. If we're not compassionate, if we're not powerfully soft, powerfully soft, we're not gonna uh pick up uh their vibe. And uh and and I I've I've heard about enough breakups and divorces, uh, where uh let's see. So there's a I'm not gonna name any names, but there's a forensic psychologist who told me that uh he was raped as a child. Uh he was unable to open up with his wife enough, even though they had children together. Uh, and he he was so selfless that he supported her uh just going into a new relationship. I guess they divorced and and and and and got married to the point where I don't know how someone does this. Uh he actually lived under the same roof with his ex-wife and her new husband just to be still be with his kids. And uh then then there was another person Wait, I'm gonna pause you right there, John.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

So there is a difference, a a very marked difference, stark rather, stark difference between um compassion and what's called idiot compassion. Idiot compassion, yeah, which is actually a term I'm borrowing from the uh Tibetan tradition. So idiot compassion is essentially enabling, is is compassion that doesn't have wisdom in it. And that's that's not true compassion. It's when you're enabling someone's perhaps inappropriate behavior. Um and say if if a child came up and said, Oh, I want to, you know, I want dessert, and you give him a whole gallon of ice cream. Oh, I love you. Please go ahead. Eat a whole gallon. Yeah, I'm I'm loving mother, I'm loving par, I'm loving whatever aunt. It's not exactly love or compassion or kindness, it's enabling. It doesn't have wisdom in it. Wisdom is when you it's it's anyway, there's a lot more to say about that. But anyway, the example you gave, I would I would put a question mark next to that. Okay, well, how about okay?

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Well, how about the next one? Then I won't name names, but I was at I was at a retreat, and one of the teachers said that uh her husband who became her her ex-husband said to her, You don't listen to me. Now that's an important one.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

And that gets back to the compassion and being present and the whole package.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah, absolutely. That's um I appreciate that. So not listening and actually deep listening um is a superpower, is a superpower. And and but a couple of things I want to relate here. One is when we're talking about silence, the the ability to silent our own thoughts long enough to to care, to listen to the other person, because usually people who are listening to someone else are just thinking about what they're going to say next, or they're listening to their own judgments. And like, okay, let's just deeply listen. And in fact, this is such an important um uh superpower, really skill that when I teach this program, mindful leadership training, we spend it's a whole module we have about how to ground ourselves in our bodies with mindfulness of the body and with our breath to really be settled enough. So there's a way, there are techniques to really cultivate, develop this. It's not just, oh, go out and listen deeply. That's great. Please do that too. But but there are ways that you can really settle yourself in your body so that you're feeling your own reactions, you're you're noticing your own reactions as well as as deeply listening, um, so that you're really tuned in, but not in your head, not in your thoughts all the time. And um this is a super powerful skill for our personal relationships, of course. But even actually, I would even go further, it's it's a powerful tool for the relationship we have with ourselves, because we're usually caught in our thoughts, and we're not really deeply listening to ourselves, even. Like, why am I doing this? Why am I upset? Why am I why, why, why? So when we teach ourselves the art of stillness, stilling our thoughts for a little bit to to to hear, really, really deeply listen to ourselves, to our bodies, because the body doesn't lie. The body will have, you know, the reactivity, but we've usually silenced it so much, we've separated, we've numbed ourselves, uh, maybe with drugs and alcohol, or just not numbed ourselves from not ignoring it. And it's not uncommon, John, for many professional, especially men, I uh to say, I'm not in touch with my emotions. I don't even know how I'm feeling because they spend decades training themselves to ignore themselves. But but what's lovely and amazing is neuroplasticity. Of course, we can turn our teach ourselves again. And and I've had so many students over the years who have trained themselves to be to listen to themselves um again deeply and also to others, to to listen to others and not keep thinking about problem solving, but just being present, holding presence, holding presence with kindness internally and externally, um, is is an amazing skill for all of us humans to to develop, especially as a lawyer. You want to be able to not just listen to the words, but you want to have the capacity to listen to the undercurrent of um emotions and and um what I I've done some mediation uh in in my role, and actually I'll tell you, so I serve as the um chair of the ethics and reconciliation council at Spirit Drop. So I've done many mediations, listened to both sides, and the idea there is you listen deeply, you listen deeply as to what is really going on, um, and the processes that I have been involved with are um uh not punitive, but a way to listen deeply and try to restore, restore the community, the size, really bring them together and come up with solutions. So restorative justice really is is the kind of work that I've done. And and for any any type of, you know, when people have been wronged and and challenges arise, especially deep listening um is is is so important, is an important skill.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Okay, I'm sorry that I missed it. You have been mediating what kind of matters?

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Oh, um so ethical issues that arise in a spiritual community.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Got it. Well, there's there's plenty of that going on, I understand.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

But there's we're human beings. Things we we bump into each other uh either willingly, either intentionally or unintentionally. Right? So um, and if we if we have if we work with our emotions and um the um both the internal emotions, you know, we can offer we can come up with solutions that are restorative for the whole for the community. Um so yeah, many directions that can take this, but I'm gonna pause and let you take it where it might be helpful to your listeners.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Well, I'm I'm just fascinated with uh some of the overlaps you and I have that I didn't know about before. You spoke about the relaxation response by Herbert Benson when I was at the Cornell Summer School during the summer before my senior of high school. Uh one of the attendees there mentioned the relaxation response. I couldn't get it soon enough. I don't think it helped me as much as the later meditation, but it started me. It said, choose a mantra, at least got you to be in the moment, in the present. Uh, I mean, you know, Buddhism teaches me so importantly about being in the present, being in the moment, uh, being um uh being in non-duality, non-attachment. Uh, and then it wasn't really until many years later, in uh 1991, during Gulf War I, when I was 28 years old, and I met my Buddhist peace teacher. She was uh uh drumming and fasting uh for peace on water only in Lafayette Park. She would sleep at a Catholic worker house, Junya Suda, during that entire almost month of January 1991. Uh, and uh she wouldn't answer me about whether it was a divine coincidence or any kind of coincidence, that on the very day that she had pre-planned for the breaking of her fast, that's when George Bush I announced the end of Gulf War One. Well, but this Buddhist Nanjunya Suda, she doesn't teach mindfulness, she teaches uh uh praying for the alleviating of suffering of others, uh, largely by chanting the Odai Moku, no Namumu Horangekyo, the essence of the Lotus Sutra, and chanting other parts of the Lotus Sutra. But somehow I just fell into it where I started uh I know it was because of Vim Venders. Vim Venders had his movie Tokyo Ga, and he was totally enthralled by uh the the the name of the uh the director who died of cancer in 1963, the same year I was born in in Japan. He was going after his footsteps, and uh and and it was there that I that I was learning about these these Buddhist concepts of of non-attachment, uh, for instance. And um and then I became after I left the uh the 2012 contemplative uh lawyers gathering at um was it Blue Cliff Monastery, yeah, related to TikNot Han, where that was easier because that was a lot less silent than Garrison. So that was getting me ready for it. I became the coordinator for a year of the contemplative lawyers group in the DC area. And you know, once again, I tried not to push anyone to do it. I just let them know that it's there. A very small group of people took advantage of that. I mean, Nikki, even after that um that colleague uh committed suicide three years ago, and some people got in the listserv and said, look, you know, if any of you are having a hard time, don't wait until it's time to commit suicide to come to come to us and be able to open up to us. And so I threw it out there in one or two listservs. I said, Look, I offered to do a sit uh, you know, before court starts at my office. We can do it in person, we do it by Zoom, because of course uh the pandemic was still going on. A few people uh bid at it, but really no one joins. So, but it just gets back to what Junia Asuda says. She said it's not about getting numbers, it's about connecting with people who want to connect. But now I get to the next thing, which is it's very interesting. So, Nikki, the first amendment of the United States Constitution says separation of church and state, which helps explain why there's no prayer rooms or meditation rooms in courthouses. But wouldn't that be cool if every courthouse had a place where we could just, you know, after I drive for an hour or 30 minutes, I can just go ahead and decompress from the drive and get in touch with myself and get grounded before I go into the courtroom. So I'm left doing that in my car. And if I try to find a corner outside the courthouse, I might be approached by deputy sheriff saying, Are you all right? I I at the Prince William courthouse, uh especially uh like in many courthouses, I would start the day by doing some tai chi outside. And when I was then doing the standing meditation, uh gathering the qi after 20 minutes of Tai Chi exercise, sure enough, both times I did it until I stopped, the uh some deputy sheriffs would come over and say, Are you okay? Are you okay? I'm just fine. But then again, Ben Lowe, who uh was one of the superstars of Tai Chi, uh who died a few years ago, he said to me, Don't do Tai Chi in the airport, don't do Tai Chi in the public like that. Because after I told him that uh when I was waiting to pick up uh at the airport, uh a Buddhist nun uh associate colleague of my Buddhist nun teacher, I went to a corner when there was a uh delay on the arrival. And sure enough, once I finished doing Tai Chi in that corner, I went into the bathroom. This uh airport police officer who I knew from the courthouse, he said, I want to talk to you when you're finished. And I thought to myself, why does he have to announce that? Does he think I'm gonna escape through the toilet? And when I came out, he said, You matched the description of someone who's doing karate kicks, and I want to know what you were doing. I said, I assert the fifth, but finally I told his friend what I was doing, so I could just pick up the uh the nun and and she let me go. But uh that well, how about that, Nikki? Uh let's say you take a long ride and you're you're maybe visiting some challenging relatives. Uh, you don't have your own car. What do we do to decompress before we go to that next level? I remember I won't name his name, it's a close relative, but when he would go to uh preschool, it's the most fascinating thing. His parent would walk with him to the classroom and he would just stand there at the entrance. And he was so popular with the students, they would go all call, yelling out his name. Hey, hey, George, not his name, hey George, how you doing? Play with us. And we just stand there, and I could see he was transitioning. He was taking 30 to 16 seconds to transition to what he was walking into.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, there's many, many important points that you've just raised, John. So um I I do want to also advocate, as you do, for these um quiet spaces, reflective spaces, reflection rooms in public places. And actually, there are airports now where you do find a meditation room. You know that, right? In San Francisco Airport, SFO, yay, there is one. I mean, I don't know how many I said one, but maybe there's one in every terminal, multiple, I don't know. Um, and other places I've seen them. And um so if it's wonderful if actually the public, you know, the the community, the the values of a society support that the same way that in Japan, I was just in Japan traveling for for a month. And and for example, in the US, it's really hard to see uh it now nowadays more, but but um to see, for example, um uh uh bathrooms with changing stations for mothers, whereas in in Japan, it's a value to support families. So everywhere you see these whole rooms and bathrooms for for families. So it's a value that the society has, right? And these changes and shifts little by little. But anyway, so yes, I'm I'm with you on on advocating for these quiet spaces. So in in in in the absence of those, since there isn't quite a shift yet in in our society to value that, value that silence, value that that transition space. What do we do in the meanwhile? How do we take care of ourselves and thereby taking care of others? So I loved how you said, you know, taking time in your car to uh take a few breaths, to settle in your body and and and transition. Another way is, of course, taking a little walk, because walking, the somatic experience of feeling the earth, feeling our feet, not being in our head, but really just dropping all the thoughts. It can be very simple. Drop the thoughts, be in your body, feel the air, feel the feet on the earth. It can just be a minute. Now, if what if those spaces are not available? So then my invitation would be a couple of things. One is see if you can build the transition into the next step. So if you're driving somewhere, um, and if you're not on a phone call, if you're not, you know, if you're not on a phone call in another meeting, great, turn off the podcast, turn off the the the radio. I mean, does anybody listen? Anyway, to turn it off. And and actually while you're driving, practice, practice stillness, practice um bringing your awareness to your body, to your breath, and to goodwill. Goodwill calms us more than anything else. I guarantee you. So if I'm driving somewhere, especially if I'm, and I've I've done this many times, especially if I'm um running late, there's traffic, and you know, the feeling like your heart is racing, like, oh my god, I'm gonna be late. And maybe also what you're getting to is an important meeting, and and you're already anxious, and and you become that that uh person you don't want to be, weaving in and out of traffic, you're becoming the you know, uh the yeah, just it's the stress, like get out of my way, and then people become obstacles, you become mean, right? You become mean-spirited. It's really the stress of that you in some ways is there, and also you creating for yourself. So instead, instead try to consider, I'm gonna get there when I'm gonna get there. It's not gonna make any difference, right? It's it's so do I and then come back to wisdom, place of wisdom. Do I want to get there feeling completely out of sorts for clemped? Do I want to get that completely get there completely out of sorts and stressed out and and bad for my immune system and and just radiate this terrible energy in the room? Or do I want to get there calm, stable, um, and and with a sense of uplift in my heart and mind? Okay, decide that, really, make a clear decision. And when you've decided, that that already lets go of of some of the some of the you know the energy of the anxious energy, and then start practicing goodwill for yourself. Um, I wish myself well. I wish all these other drivers on the road. I wish them safety. May they get there to may we all of us get to our destination with safety, with ease. May we all get there with happiness, joy. Just spread just a sense of goodwill, because goodwill is just friendliness, you know, friendly, neighborly friendliness, right? And just spread that. And I guarantee you, you're going to arrive feeling so good. You're still saying, I'm sorry I'm late. Thank you for your patience. But just the way you show up for yourself and for others is different. And you don't even need that 30 seconds in the car to settle down because you're now you're completely, you know, for clammed. So that's my invitation. I'll say one more thing uh before transition. That is, you know, the reason why we practice uh same meditation, contemplative practices in silence on the cushion, it's not just so that it's that's what it is, it's on the cushion. We do it because of how we live our lives. That's why we do it. So so why by practicing on your own on the cushion, then you then it changes you, changes your mind, changes your brain, changes the way you approach everything. It just becomes easier. You become less of a basket case. I know I used to be much more nervous and anxious, and I would get much more reactive. And and it's the I've changed. I know the these practices have changed me, and I've seen so many of my students change over the years. It's it's remarkable, it's really remarkable. These tools are available. Avail yourself of them.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Well, now that you say that, you'll see more reactive. So some people say that there was a prosecutor in Alexandria when I mentioned to her about my mindfulness practice and my Tai Chi. She said, Then why are you always so wound up? I said, I'd be worse if I wasn't doing that practice. And uh and then when I was applying the The compassion, the mindfulness, and I call them the triple things to uh deal with depression and anxiety, uh, etc., which and and even for those with suicidal thoughts, compassion, gratitude, and generosity, just thinking outside yourself and realizing we're connected. So, in that regard, there was a former criminal defense lawyer who gave became a prosecutor here behind me at the Fairfax Courthouse, like many uh uh sorry, a former criminal defense law. A lot of criminal defense lawyers have jumped ship and joined these so-called uh progressive prosecutors. Well, he wasn't acting so progressive about a year ago when I was arguing to the judge about his continuance request after he told me he was going to go ahead and ask to dismiss my assault case and maybe recharge it or not. So he, you know, he he catches me uh blindly, which I'm always ready for. I never expect anything better uh from my opponents. And uh then when I make an argument to the judge, he interrupts, says, that's for the judge to decide. And bless the judge, she said to him, there'll be no crosstalk. So fast forward two days later, he was all excited talking about another case. I said, We're not ready to talk about that other case that we have a week from now. He said, Why? Because I want to tell you about the beef I have with you from two days ago. But with that anger, I told him about it. And I said, So if we're gonna move uh move forward uh positively, we're not gonna have repeats of this. Well, this same prosecutor, uh, I wonder if he's gonna fall off his chair if he's listening to this. We had a sentencing last week. My guy was charged with some very serious felony charges. He could have gone away for years. And this prosecutor said to me proactively during the break while I was waiting for my sentencing, when he had a mountain of sentencings to do, he said, I'm gonna ask the judge to release your client from jail. This is more self-improvement and uh self-rehabilitation and a change of a person I've ever seen before. But I said to myself, wow, it's just a good thing I didn't tell this prosecutor. The first thing was on my mind, which is don't be an a-hole. I don't know you well enough to know if you're an a-hole, but you're an a-hole that day. I empowered him to do the right thing. And of course, when we say a-hole, how many times did I just say it? It goes into a negative spiral, it goes into a downward spiral. It's just like my former law partner would say, and I guess he won't be upset for me to say this because I think I've said it to his face. You know, if that book, uh Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus has any truth. I don't like doing the uh the stereotyping of the genders. He was much more from Venus, and I'm much more from Mars. He would say to me, He'd say, John, we gotta watch out about yelling and shouting and getting angry. It's just a downward spiral spiral. It totally is. You know, here's how I found out about Krishna Das, and I guess you've known you know him personally, perhaps. Okay. So I learned about Krishna Das, of course, you know, with Ram Das, and he would do the the Kirtan with the Neem Karali Baba. So of course, when I found out that he was going to be in town, this is around 2011, I jumped at it and he was there with Sharon Salzburg. Now, of course, you teach with Sharon, right? Yes, and uh Sharon started off early on with this guided meditation, and for the first time in my life, now I you know I I do sitting meditation on and off because Tai Chi is my moving meditation for the first time in my life, and it happened again with um who was who was her student who got caught in the fire on the plane, you know who I'm talking about. Well, uh that doesn't doesn't matter to get it to get the name uh right now, but for the first time life with her, and then with her student who was caught in the fire at some point, um I felt for the first time not only that time and space were infinite, but that I was also infinite in time and space. And uh to this day I don't know how much of that was me, how much it was Sharon, how much it was our connection, because I had then uh joined Sharon's uh uh uh Dharma, uh Dharma gatherings, which were I think once a month in DuPont Circle uh for for for many months after that. And so and I told her that, and she was so modest about it, she wouldn't take credit for it. And so, what I want to get to you is we know about some meditative practices, I'm not gonna name them, that charge a lot of money to learn and to say are you you can't parallel this. Is there a secret to meditation? It are you able to teach people deeper and deeper, deeper, better meditation practice they're going, or is it only about sitting and focusing on the present through your breath, for instance?

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Yeah, thanks, John. Um, I appreciate the question. Before I answer it, though, I do want to appreciate what you said earlier in the stories you told about uh the just the level of self-knowledge and clarity. For example, the story you shared about, oh, the with with this uh with this other lawyer that you had a sense of way, we're not finished yet. I had I need to have a conversation with you, you know, we can move on. And and without any anger, you say, you know, this is what's going on. We need to talk about this, resolve this. And if you had brought anger to that, it would have just made it worse. But but you resolved it instead, and you had it sounds like a very productive conversation before moving to the next. Beautiful. I'm I'm celebrating this self-knowledge and also lack of anger because it's extra. It doesn't empower you, actually, disempowers you from from being of service and letting the other person be of service, or not calling uh, you know, someone an aho who you don't even know, they're doing their best, right? They none of us wakes up in the morning thinking I'm gonna be a jerk today. It's like we are all doing the best we can. So let's give each other the benefit of doubt as we begin and see if we can find a way to work together. And sounds like that that worked out beautifully. So it's just a shift in perspective. If you think the world is a an unfriendly place, uh, if you think it's a dangerous, unfriendly place, then it's actually this is a beautiful quote from from Albert Einstein, one of my heroes, that if we think the world is uh unfriendly, then we do all the things we can in order to destroy it and then we build weapons, etc. If we think the world is a neutral place and uh God is playing dice with the universe, this is a famous part of that quote. If everybody's heard that, then we we are into nailism. What's the point? I don't know, what's the point? But if we decide that the world is a friendly place and and there's friendliness and goodwill all around us, then we'd we we um use all of our powers and um our our intentionality, our powers in order to to co-create, to be helpful, to serve. It it it just shifts the way we are. So I wanted to acknowledge that. So now with the question you asked, uh which I just forgot, what what did you what was the question at Taylor? Oh, yeah, yeah, oh, the different methods. Okay, I remember, I remember. So different methods, yeah. So so you know, meditation is like sports, there's so many different ways and types of meditation, and even within a particular tradition of of Buddhism, right? No, so so there's lots of different traditions, you know. There's Christian meditation with say with the desert fathers, and and there's various um uh what's the word? It's uh gosh, I'm forgetting the name. There's a particular style of meditation that's very similar to to Buddhist meditation. Um, something prayer, it's called. Ah, can't remember. Anyway, so there are in every tradition, there are different meditation uh meditations. Um, and then there's the Hindu meditation styles, um, and there's TM, which is basically just repeating a mantra that you buy and get, and and and and uh secret mantra, and and basically it's a concentration practice where you are focusing on one thing, either a sound or or an idea, over and over again in order to to still the mind. Um, so what I appreciate about the Buddhist canon uh of practices, again, they're different lineages, etc., each have their own practices. Um, the the and uh be also to say that with Buddhism, every country and culture it's gone into it has adapted and shifted. Um so with Tibetan Buddhism, there is a lot more prayer, like the the the one of the teachers uh your teachers you're mentioning, the praying for all beings and and citing mantras. There's a lot more of that in Tibetan Buddhism. You don't really see much of that in Theravada. It really appeals to to a scientific and simple, you know, uh mind like mine. There's devotion and some other practices. Anyway, long story short, there as there are many, many, many different practices, even with within Theravada, this early school, which is simpler, uh so many different practices with with uh not just mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of the breath, there's mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of thoughts, mindfulness of emotions, there's mindfulness of mind states, there's mindfulness of feeling tone, Vedana. There just and and then that that's just one sutta. There's so many, there's mindfulness of death, which is I love teaching about. There's there's so many different there's there's uh loving kindness practices that that you had this amazing, wonderful, beautiful experience, which is lovely, and and it it happens, right? It happens for many practitioners that they have these insights uh that that arise and it really shifts their perspective about who they are and where they are in the world. So um, so these practices of loving-kindness, compassion, uh vicarious joy, happiness for the happiness of others instead of envy, which is an awesome practice, practice of equanimity, just peace with how things are in this moment right now. May I accept and be at peace with things that I cannot change, similar to serenity prayer in the in that way. Anyway, lots and lots of different practices, John. It's it's you know, if we um it's the secular mindfulness, a very simplified, packaged uh and it's a great start, but there's so much more. And and and uh some ways that I would invite people to explore is actually attending um a silent retreat, a short silent retreat for themselves. It just to dive in. It's it's you don't it doesn't have to be a 10-day like the first one I did. If you uh and if you want to do that, more power to you. It's great, it changed my life, and I'm here now as a Buddhist teacher, uh lineage holder in Theravada tradition. I never thought I would be. It's still pinching myself. I'm a nerd. Anyway, um, but but starting maybe with a four-day, and it's it's funny because you told me that this this will be released very soon, this conversation. So maybe I'll just mention a retreat I'm teaching actually this weekend, and there's still a few spaces left. So if people want to come for a four-day uh retreat starting on uh Monday, September 2nd through September 5th, which is the um uh the the uh what's it called? The um the long weekend, the Labor Day weekend, uh fly over to California uh at Spirit Rock. It's a four-day retreat and really dip your toes. I guess it's more than dipping your toes, dipping your toes deeply into the practice. And again, this is at Spirit Rock Meditation Center. Um, it's a um silent retreat for four days, three nights, just a a a brief way uh to get into it. I'm also teaching a befriending mortality, uh uh retreat, um uh which is um uh the subtitle of it, Living an Awakened Life Through Mindfulness of Death. Uh, very powerful, and that's in October, October 27th through November 2nd, also at Spirit Rock. I strongly invite you, if especially if there is a sense of why am I doing this? Who am I? What values are important to me? Um, how do I want to live? How do I want to love? What kind of legacy do I want to leave as a human being that I am really um uh befriending our mortality clarifies our values uh strong more strongly than any other practice in the world? Uh I've I've studied many, and this is this is so powerful. Uh and it's not morbid, it's it's really, you know, we're all gonna die. So how do you how do you want to live? That's really the question that we do, uh we we address on this retreat.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

And of course, uh uh being with dying people was big with Ram Doss and uh Roshi uh Joan Halifax uh deals with uh the subject. You have a website and you have a podcast at the very least. What is that website and how do people get to your podcast?

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Yeah, so my um website is nikkimergafori.com. You see you'll have my first and last name. And if you if you're listening to this in driving, it's like I don't know, her last name is complicated. If you put in Google, if you put Nikki N-I-K-K-I meditation, just two words, Nikki Meditation. I I'm the first uh organic hit that comes up. Um no paid subscription, just I haven't paid anything. It's the first one that comes up. So you can find my website, my calendar, um, and on my website you'll see just a lot of free content. I I I a lot of over a thousand free talks that I have. I should have part of the podcast on Audio Dharma and Dharma Seed, and all of those are freely available on my website. Um, lots of meditations, lots of guided meditations, lots of talks, short talks, long talks. And also I teach this um uh um weekly class um on Zoom and on YouTube called Happy Hour. And it's uh dedicated to cultivating a goodwill in our heart because when you have goodwill, you become happy. That's what happens, it shifts us. So that's on Zoom, 6 p.m. Pacific time. Lots of East Coasters come at 9 p.m. and meditate before going to bed, and you'll find happy hour on my website. Um look for it. So maybe the last thing I wanted to say is there's also a retreat I'm teaching at at Eselin Institute, beautiful Esselin Institute, at the uh uh uh in September. And um that is called The Buddha, the brain and Bach, exploring the practice in mind, music, and life with the two friends who are one is a neuroscientist and the other one is a um uh celebrated cellist, and that's September 16th to 20th. And that's a very unusual and fun workshop. So excellent. That's a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

And which is the one where you're gonna be with Jack Cornfield and uh I forget who else was in the lineup.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

Um I'm not play uh teaching with Jack again this year, so that's uh that's it's that Spirit Rock, the one I'm teaching except in actually in this coming Monday, but uh Jack is not part of the team.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Okay, I must have missed that. Okay, Nikki, I told you this would uh uh take an hour. I do want to ask one or two more questions. I'd ask a bunch of questions if I could, but I'm gonna limit it. The title of the podcast is Beat the Prosecution. So, what I invite you to do is two things. Do you have any suggestions for us criminal defense lawyers and for the criminal defendants to get closer to beating the prosecution beyond the tips and ideas and teachings you've already given us? And what more do you want the audience to know that I haven't asked and or that you have not said?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Yeah, yeah. You know, see the humanity, see the humanity in everyone, make a connection. Don't see them in some ways, maybe the work that you're doing is adversarial in some way. And I think the title, Beat the Prosecution, you know, suggests that. And yet, if if it is possible, you know, try this on for size. And you don't have to just try it on for size for 30 seconds. You can always like take it off, like it's a it's like a cloak that you try on, like, okay, I'm gonna try this on and see how it fits if you try it on for just 30 seconds, not to see the case as an adversarial situation, but see the humanity of the other people and make a connection, see how it might shift. If it doesn't work, take the cloak off. Maybe the next case you put it on, you try it on. Does it fit? Oh, maybe it fits, maybe it fits sometimes, but it it's see see the humanity, see the kind of humanity.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

The humanity, absolutely. Well, Nikki Marigafori, uh, as my uh one of my Tai Chi teachers said, do not let our teachers forget how much we appreciate them, even though it's been years and years since we've communicated much and all. I feel like we've picked up just where we left off. Well, where do we leave off? It was mostly silent in 2015. I appreciate you so much. I appreciate what you do for everybody. Thank you so much. I'm gonna say goodbye to everybody, and then I'm gonna say goodbye after we close uh this uh Zoom talk. This has been John Katz of Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense and DWI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. Stay tuned for our next show.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beatheprosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.