SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia Criminal Defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz. We are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense and DWI defense lawyer in Northern Virginia, Fairfax. I don't know what I did right in my life for the amazing Tony Simra to accept my invitation to join this podcast. Let me tell you something. One of the first things that I heard when I became a public defender lawyer in Maryland was from other public defenders why did you choose to leave a corporate law firm to be a public defender lawyer? And when I gave my honest answer, because that's where my heart is, one of these uh public defender lawyers who was a previous prosecutor said, watch out what happens when you wear your heart on your sleeve. Well, I'm not going to hide my heart, and Tony Sarah doesn't either. Tony, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Hello, everyone. I'm Tony Sara. I'm uh have a long career as a criminal defense lawyer, a long career in doing jury trials back to back, long career in winning, you know, very difficult cases. Uh at this point in my life, I'm nearly 90, so I'm still practicing, and uh probably one of uh the oldest practitioners, you know, who is still active in court cases, uh at least out in the West.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Tony, what made you decide to do criminal defense and what made you decide to take a detour first into a few months of prosecution or so before you left the prosecution role?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

I'm hearing only the first part uh of your question.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Maybe you can hear me better. I didn't have the microphone close to me. What made you uh go into criminal defense and what made you detour first into prosecution for a few months?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Okay. The only thing that I would even consider when I, you know, graduated from law school, and I graduated quite high in my class. Uh, I was uh law review, which uh in our school, UC Berkeley, uh is uh the top 10 percent. So um I could have done really anything I wanted to, but uh only I only wanted to do you know two things. I wanted to do jury trials, you know, and that's been the passion of my life. And I wanted uh to uh do criminal defense because it's the only you know ethical, moral direction for me. Uh then and now I want to help people. I want to eliminate the the prospect that the any human being would spend time in a steel cage. I'm talking about jail. People ask me what do you do? I always say I keep people out of steel cages, you know. So uh it was an easy shot for me uh to uh only do criminal defense and only represent people in very difficult cases. Now, the stint I did with the DA in Alameda County was a pragmatic gesture. I got out of law school, I passed the bar real uh high. I was the uh either the first or second highest in the state uh in all things of contracts, and then I started grading contracts. I used to pay you to grade in the old days, and uh the uh the real uh challenge at that point uh was uh uh to have enough cases to try. So I applied at all the public defender offices, and they all said words to this effect will put you on the counter for the first year. So the counter is, you know, you're talking to witnesses or to uh investigators, and you're you know uh making uh assessments for motions, et cetera, et cetera. And so I didn't want to do that. I wanted to get into court. So the only ones who would put me in the court, and the San Francisco DA wouldn't put me into court either. So uh the only one who put me into court was Alameda County, and uh, you know, the heart of that is Oakland, and they have a lot of serious cases, a lot of serious crimes, sadly, in in Oakland. And so um I wanted to get jury experience because that's what I wanted to do ultimately on on my own. So I decided, well, I'll be a DA for a short period of time to get jury experience. And indeed I did. As soon as I signed up, I was in court the next day. That's what I wanted. And I did in uh 11 months, I stayed with the DA for 11 months, I did 34 jury trials. They were short, you know, short trials, uh, misdemeanors, but I was in court and I was in front of the judge, and you know, I I learned, you know, how to persuade uh jurors and how uh to be in a certain sense legalistically eloquent. So it was well worth it. Although uh when I retrospect, I was always telling the only mistake I ever made was going with the DA, even though I got all of that experience and could immediately go out on my own and take cases. This was the heyday of the hate Ashbury. You know, there was thousands of people, the streets were crammed with people, and arrests were frequent. And so I got to not only won do jury trials as a consequence of you know my stint with the DA, but I also uh got uh how would I say it, uh, trained or became available to serve the Haight Ashbury clientele. So um I always I I I remember I was in Washington, D.C. once and I was standing on a corner and a tourist bus went by and they said, What tribe are you from? You know, thinking I was a Native American, because I look like a Native American. And I said, I'm a hippie from Ashbury. That's my tribe, and that is my tribe, and I've always considered myself, you know, uh hippie. I've always uh I took a vow when I first started practice that I would not profit from the practice of law, that I would be uh a person who does pro bono cases. So I could always remember when uh in in the San Francisco uh and they had you know hundreds of people on the calendar because the hate Ashbury was being raided mostly by the Narcs and undercover officers, and it was terrible. And they would say, Do you want the public defender? And they would say, No, we want Tony Sarah, because I was pro bono, and uh I've kept that vow. I've um not uh gained you know any material benefits from the practice of law. I uh uh I have uh no property, no real property, no um uh uh you know no nothing uh in the bank, uh, nothing in uh a trust. So uh I uh and I'm still in that position. I do an awful lot of pro bono. At one time it was uh 80% uh pro bono, you know, 20%. I would take money, but only enough to for the costs of the case and for you know to to exist. Uh I had rent to pay and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

So Tony, I think I was looking for you ever since I was in high school and fascinated about the hippie movement, uh, because I was born in 1963. I was a little too young to understand it was happening. And maybe, just maybe, even though California is such a huge state. Have you ever seen a big uh purple El Dorado Cadillac? This would have been around the early 90s, with a license plate saying a moment. What is the license plate? It says a moment.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Uh I thought you were talking about my car. I used to have what was it, a 64 Cadillac that had the remember the big wings in the back? Yeah. And uh I used to drive that around and you know park it, and people would come and look at it, and it was uh uh very unique.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Well, the the reason I brought that up, Tony, is that uh I knew that I wasn't supposed to be at this corporate law firm too long. I had some great teachers there, and of course the pay there was good enough before becoming a public defender lawyer for five years. But I was returning from this vegetarian Indian restaurant, and I became a strict vegetarian at the age of 25, and there was this big, huge purple El Dorado Cadillac, probably from around 1965, similar to your year. And the license plate said a moment. And the guy who was sitting there, he was this big, huge man, looked almost like William Gaines, the publisher of Mad Magazine. And he seemed to be looking at me in a knowing way, which was, hey cats, take a moment. Are you really taking your life in the right direction? He was an important messenger to me, and you're an important messenger. And I'd like to know what is it that made you take this vow of not doing uh uh work for big profit? I mean, I I think I read once you said something along the lines of instead of giving uh uh gifts of uh of much dollar value, your mother, I think it was, would sometimes give you fabric and you would uh groove in the colors that she was giving you.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Well, that's uh an uh view into my private life and uh has nothing to do with the practice of law or preparing me for the practice of law. But we uh my birthday is December 30th, uh 1934, but it was so close to Christmas that uh it and I'm I'm from a uh I'll call an upper lower class family, working class uh father, et cetera. And so uh instead of the uh giving presents at Christmas, uh my mother would give like a colorful scarf. Uh uh I still have the psychedelic, you know, scarf that she gave. So she would give us uh um my brother, who's Richard Serra who became quite a famous sculpture, just died recently, you might know. And so uh I took the vow poverty uh because I didn't intend to make any money. I'm non-materialistic, I uh live very frugally. Uh I um cherish above, you know, material things. I call it chromatic index to life. You know, color is tells more uh uh profound, you know, message than language. It's an alternative to language. We who practice law, we are word merchants. But when you are involved with color, your different side of your brain is operating, your mind is open, and it becomes, you know, life becomes a wondrous thing. So uh yes, I still am of that uh opinion, and I still do most of my work pro bono.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

So you've you've said about winning a lot of cases. Could you give one or two examples of cases you've won and tell the audience how it is that you learned to win? Because I get a sense that uh you were so busy at the Alameda County prosecutor's office that maybe that wasn't where you had mentors really teaching you how to win. That maybe it came from within you.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

No, I I I remember Paul Dacey, who later became a judge, uh, who was in Alameda DA's office, and he, like I, did uh the you know jury trials, and uh I uh he was my uh superior there. I kind of reported to him, and we talked about cases together. So I did derive knowledge and experience that was meaningful, even though it's with the figurative enemy, so to speak. Uh I thought this was before the hate. I graduated from law school in you know in the 50s, so it was before Hate Ashbury happened, and uh I thought wrongly and and oddly that I was gonna go back to New York and I was going to uh uh you know represent probably not pro bono, the mafia, you know. Uh I have an Italian sounding name, and uh uh you know they uh had solicited me, and I had uh ultimately did do a mafia case uh and uh hung it uh in in Florida in Miami. Uh uh so uh you know then the hate hit, and uh I you know I lived close to the hate. I was an athlete in in uh college. I played baseball, football, and I boxed. I was a light heavy boxer. I wasn't it turned out I wasn't very good, but you know, good enough to make the team and travel with the team and play play uh with them. Uh but the the um the decision to stay in San Francisco uh uh was uh obvious when uh the hate hit. It's the only place I wanted to be. Being an athlete, I was what you call a dance freak. So I would go down to what now uh well now is a bank, I think, but was the straight theater, if anyone remembers on on hate, and they would have a light show uh band. So the the light show was um uh it's called liquid projections, and so you you have a in a kind of a dish and you shake it, and then the uh the the lights um reflect from it and people dance out in front. So I I became a dance freak. I would be down there dancing all night. I would bring an extra pair of clothes because I sweat so much dancing that you know, when I left I wanted to be not soaking wet, so I I always brought with me uh uh you know spare uh uh change of clothing. And uh it was uh a fabulous time in my life, uh dancing uh uh with the other freaks. We call ourselves dance freaks, and so you know they I I don't even know their names, but you you do were like a whirling dervish, you know, dancing and and um up very close to the stage. I was always real close to the stage. So it was fabulous, and you know, I still recount that as maybe the high point of my life in terms of not only criminal, you know, defense, but personally in terms of adopting a lifestyle uh that included uh uh dance, you know, as a uh uh ceremony um of uh life, uh it was it was fabulous.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Uh I want to back up, Tony. Uh I was remiss in notch uh extending my condolences about your brother. I didn't know about it, and I didn't want you to think that uh my silence meant that I wasn't extending that to you. And uh to continue, uh can you give the audience an example of uh one or two of uh uh victories of yours that really stand out for you?

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Sure. I think the first case that pushed me on the uh national um level, uh you know, it uh my reputation became national was uh the Black Panther trial of Huey uh Newton. Uh, this was a case where they claimed uh falsely that uh he had killed a prostitute on the corner. Uh cutting it short, turned out that the major, the only witness that identified him as being the shooter of the prostitute was in jail at the time. And uh so it was a resounding victory, and uh we celebrated it, you know, accordingly. And uh um I used to go into the Panther, Black Panther, uh uh they they had uh safe houses uh where uh at that point uh they were uh thinking that uh that they would be raided. And uh if you remember the uh possession of uh rifle was still legal, so there was all sandbags and it was a a uh a um uh they were there waiting with rifles, and so they wanted a uh a white lawyer to be there as either a witness uh or you know be involved uh uh potentially in um monitoring the situation. So I remember I I'd go there at about midnight, um, both in Oakland and in San Francisco, and the first thing they did was strip you down naked to make sure that you didn't uh have any kind of recording device and you weren't spying on them. And then there was a sleeping bag they gave you, and you slept near the front door, and that's how I met Huey, and that's how you know he would be there all night, and the white uh the Black Panthers, because later I represented the White Panthers too, but the Black Panthers um uh they um uh uh had uh a newsletter that they used to produce. So Yue was there producing it, and I met him because you know I was there ready. If they came. They never did. So everything turned out okay. But the next case, I guess, that comes to mind is uh Russell Little, SLA, killing of Marcus Forster. He was uh black uh superintendent of schools, and he wanted everyone who lived in the ghetto who was black to carry identification uh with them, like in South Africa, you know, and so the um uh Romero and Lewis uh um they were then uh part of the Sibonese Liberation Army, and uh they um uh allegedly killed uh Marcus Foster to prevent this happening to the blacks, the identification cards, you know, like South Africa. They were against that. So that was a major victory because we we uh you know I was the main lawyer, and uh uh I can remember the court was surrounded by Panthers wearing their leather and black hat and with uh rifles. I don't know if you remember the old news, and the court was just packed, and uh it was so wonderful because I would be uh either you know questioning someone or I would be arguing something or opening and closing, and uh it was a whole black audience packed court, and they were going you know, like a like a church. Right on, Tony, you tell them, Tony, you know, like that was going on during the trial? Yeah, yeah. And the judge let that happen? That was a major victory. The SLA uh was a major uh victory. I represented the uh Hills Angels, and uh in their the large case in the federal court in San Francisco, uh where they uh charged them under uh RICO Act, and uh we got acquittals, you know, uh on all of that, and that was uh potential, you know, life sentence case. So that that was a big one, and I started representing the uh the um the angels in a lot of different cases, including uh you know alleged murder cases. So that kind of put me on the map also. Uh I already told you in the hate I was representing people on the drug charges, and um uh uh you know uh that I became kind of famous for that.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

So what is your approach to actually winning? So let's start out with uh the Huey Newton case. Was it was it as easy as you revealing that the eyewitness was uh was in prison at the time? There must have been more than that to winning the Huey Newton uh trial.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Uh no, of course that made the case winnable. Probably without that, that witness who didn't really exist would have identified him and he might have been convicted. I just don't know. But of course, you know, you what you're suggesting, oh well, that was an easy win. As you know, nothing's an easy win. You're you're not presumed innocent in this game, you're fucking presumed guilty, you know, and you've got to overcome that. So it's uh, you know, to win is I always used to say uh, you know, part of closing, so so to speak, is that the two most beautiful words in the English language is not guilty, you know, they not guilty, not and I would repeat it over and over, it's like church bells ringing in the courtroom. You know, don't be apologetic, don't be reluctant, give the man the benefit of the you know, reasonable doubt, blah blah blah. But um uh uh that was a major victory. The the Hells Angels was a major victory. The um I had uh major victories all over the uh Bay Area, and uh as I said, I did back-to-back jury trials. I've done hundreds of jury trials, so um it's it's something that uh uh distinguishes me from other criminal defense lawyers, is that uh I don't deal cases out, man. I go You don't deal any cases? Uh when I case comes to me pro bono or otherwise, I get someone else in the office to do it if they're gonna require a fee. I I won't take it because I want to have the freedom to take you know pro bono and take the kind of cases that I believe in.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Do you ever uh uh negotiate plea deals?

SPEAKER_02 28:05

No, I I let someone else do that. I'm not a negotiator. Uh uh as you know, um I just wrote a book, little book, pamphlet type book, but on uh uh the perils of uh the informant system, you know, where an informant who rolls and incriminates someone else, sometimes an innocent person, that person walks, he gets you know a good deal, and then uh, you know, I cross-examine them, and I'm very good at cross-examining snitches. The truth is I hate snitches, and uh snitches should be part of our system, they are unreliable per se, and uh they lied, obviously, to save their own skin. So not only was I, you know, uh how would I say it, uh, trying a lot of cases, I was um uh I I was impeaching a lot of snitches.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

So now you brought up that that topic, Tony. What is the name of that pamphlet or book that you're uh speaking of?

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Um would you give me a copy of it? It's in a box, then I show it to them.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Okay, while you're getting that, uh I don't believe in snitch work either. Okay, rat. Okay, it's a great title. Rat. Thank you.

unknown 29:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

No, it's it's informants are ruining the Sixth Amendment, lack of confrontation, right? You know, a lot of times, obviously, they don't even reveal their identity. They keep their identity secret. You know, you're your uh whatever you call it, they bring a case against you, they bring witnesses against you, and you don't even know who they are. Right. It's a horrible thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I avoid doing the snitch work. Uh I have spoken to one of the deans of criminal defense in my area, uh local area, who was practicing long before I started. And I said to me, Are you doing snitch work now? He said, Yeah, we're finally doing it. There are these lawyers who 20, 30 years ago vowed not to do it and start doing it. I know you're not going to start doing it, but how do we eliminate the snitch system other than through legislation, Tony?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Uh you can do it by public condemnation. If everyone, you know, disdains uh snitches and uh and lawyers you know won't participate in in allowing a client to part. So you're not doing them any good. They they go back to their home base, or sometimes you know they um give them a false identity, another identity and relocate them, but they go back there and they're always looking over their back. They're always worried they're gonna be killed. I have had um you know how you do revelation promotion, uh revelation of identity to ascertain if a snitch is reliable. I've had two snitches killed after they were revealed. One was uh um given uh uh um one was shot, and the other uh one was given um a form of poison. So uh they're not very beloved to begin with. So um they have to be eliminated if we're gonna have a free culture.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Agreed. Eliminated in a nonviolent way, of course. Now, I wish there was there were more videos and films available of you, but there there is a riveting uh 60 minute segment of you that's available on YouTube. And the way you're just going talking to the jury, I think it may have even been for a misdemeanor case, it's amazing how you're just going right to the jury, talking about reasonable doubt, and probably guilty isn't enough. Um you have this defend defending your client well um approach in every cell of your body. And that's why I wanted to speak with you today, because that's the way I still feel myself.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah. The only difference maybe is I'm just about 90. And I've had just an operation for spinal fusion. So, you know, I think I'll probably live longer, but uh I'm not gonna be around forever.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Okay, now, since be well, we we'll we'll see about that if you're not gonna be around forever, and you're gonna live on. But uh now, because you're such a true believer, and I think that is what's is that the name of one of the movies or books about you? Uh does that interfere with your ability to relate well with uh with prosecutors, with judges? Do you do you have any how do you overcome the boundary of uh of just seeing a judge as the other, a prosecutor as the other, because uh because you you see them uh in a role that that you don't think they should be doing, for instance?

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Uh I always when I first started, I believed that you know judges tried to be fair. Um then as time went on, I saw that uh judges are like in a sport, you know, you pretend like um uh the metaphor of a soccer game. I can get the ball around, you know, the forwards, I can get the ball around the backfield. I'm just when I'm ready to score, ready to kick it over the goal. The one who stops me is the one who is supposed to be the referee, and that's the judge. So I have always viewed judges, you know, not as fair and impartial. I viewed them as the last you know resistance of the prosecution, and therefore I don't have much respect for many of them. And yes, they don't have much respect for me, and we argue and we, you know, uh um uh lamb base each other. So um I'm not a typical lawyer in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

You know, when I became a uh public defender lawyer, it was in a county where it's not like the DC public defender system nearby where we're where the uh where there are a bunch more true believers on the defense side there. So I remember some of my colleagues would say we have to get along with some with these prosecutors, at least the ones who are more upstanding. I'm good friends with with some of them. Um you know, Tony, um on social media I may I might avoid even connected with anyone's social media who prosecutes my clients' cases. The only prosecutors I've been on social media with is my former office mate of the public defender's office who's a former independent lawyer who doesn't have cases with me. I really I really do draw some lines there. Well, it's public knowledge that um with your tax resistance, if that's what you call it, um every once in a while you have a foray into um a jail or prison. And I'm interested in you sharing them with the um audience not only about how you approach it yourself with when you're going to serve them a time in jail, um, but also whether you have thoughts from my clients and other criminal defendants from how to prepare themselves for jail, how to survive it, uh whether it's changing their mindset, whether it's helping other inmates, or whatever. Because you and I know, I mean, there are inmates who get raped and otherwise assaulted in prison.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yes. Let's talk about prison. We always said, I always said, you know, when given the opportunity to talk out, uh, that every judge and every prosecutor ought to spend at least five days in prison to understand what the hell they're doing when they send someone, you know, to to jail or to prison. So uh when I uh how do you survive there? You survive uh like you survive uh on the outside. Uh you survive by um uh you know uh by not um putting yourself in a position to um be uh um uh what I call it uh not putting yourself in a position to be uh uh shot or killed by other inmates uh or by guards. Uh it's a survival mode. Um uh for me um I took a vow that I would not pay taxes because I believed that the taxes that we collect were going for war efforts, and I was a conscientious objector with regard to the war. I uh did not serve, you know, in the in the in the in the in the in the jail system. I did not serve um in the tax. Uh if you remember Joan Baez would do that, not pay her tax, but obviously she had money in the bank and they just seized it, so uh she actually paid more than she would have if she had paid it because they took uh a penalty out of it. Um I um was like I always say a doctor uh locked up in a hospital who likes to practice medicine. You know, so uh I um tried to help all everyone I could while I was in custody. Uh I they didn't, because it was a protest, my not paying taxes, the bar, California bar, was very good to me, man. They understood it. They came down and talked to me. They uh didn't a big article in the magazine about um me and my my vow not to pay taxes, so I wasn't disbarred, so I could practice, and it was wonderful because I was like a dentist. Uh uh Saturdays and Sundays you had uh recreational time, so I would sit out in the yard and uh be on a chair, and like a dentist or something, people were lining up, and they'd come one by one, they sit by the side of me and we would talk. And first thing, of course, they wanted to talk about was their appeal. So we would go over the points, and you know, I would give them points and uh let them know what their chances were, and so then uh uh beyond that uh we uh would discuss um their uh uh uh I forget exactly, but uh we would discuss their case and discuss you know their uh uh conscience their position. So it was wonderful. I practiced law while I was in there. I uh advised them, you know, on appeals in lots of other areas. I started doing civil law just to help them. I would do uh uh divorce for them, I would do um uh uh contracts. Uh I I would do uh all kinds of civil matters. Uh I would um help them, you know, do that. Um obviously I did a lot of um uh running uh while I was there just to exercise. And so you run uh yeah in the uh area where the um the prison you know um practice uh was taking place. And I used to uh run and I would uh my my legs uh were uh getting stronger. So for me, prison wasn't a bad thing. It really was very good for me and good for the people that I served while I was there. So um uh I still you know have that attitude. I would rather go to jail and pay than uh pay taxes. I would rather go to jail and do good for prisoners. Prisoners, you know, are my brothers and uh the uh prison I was in Lumpok, uh they uh had only men, so uh it was uh male uh dominated uh experience. And I helped a great many.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

And I think uh I heard you speak on a on a previous podcast in the last one or two years that uh based on your age you have uh uh a choice of some of the easier jobs at the uh prison. Is that true? And why do you why is it required to do any jobs anyway? If you'd refused, what's the penalty?

SPEAKER_02 43:39

I was at Lumbok Camp. And yeah, that is a working facility. You must work. And so um, because of my age, I was given assignments that were not, you know, real heavy, stressful, physical. Uh what I Did was I was uh I I did the watering. So I set up these uh sprinkler systems. I watered with a hose and um it was um you know something that I could believe in. It was something that uh uh I sprinkle the grass and you see the birds come to eat the worms that go up, you know, it was really beautiful, and uh I I um I most of the time, you know uh okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

So what what is your uh image of what the criminal justice should be justice system should be? Do we totally eliminate it? Do we replace it with something that's a little more understanding or collaborative? Do we eliminate most of the criminal laws?

SPEAKER_02 45:05

I don't think none of the above. I think that lawyers just have to be um more persistent in their um you know denunciation of the um prison system and um more uh uh how would I say it, uh careful not to tread um um uh too far uh over the line, so to speak?

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Okay, now uh when you have a big case involving a lot of evidence, a lot of preparation, uh do you have any general approaches you take to really absorbing uh and distilling the information you need and being ready to use it to your best advantage? And to what extent do you use uh teamwork with you? Any are there assistants that come aboard with you, or do you have any any co-counsel that work with you?

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Uh only after I was probably 80, um, or even later than that, I have an assistant help, because obviously you can even tell from my talk now, um, my mind is not as uh acute as it used to be. But the way you prepare, and you it's obvious, is that you have to know everything. You have to be familiar with everyone who's gonna be a witness, what they've said before, you know, how you're gonna uh uh attack their credibility, et cetera, et cetera. And uh I um have a how would I call it uh high IQ because uh in law school uh I used to have a high IQ when you're old, man, everything goes to hell. Um but I used to um I'm forgetting what the question was.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Um what was your what what are you able to uh do to uh absorb all the amounts of energy?

SPEAKER_02 47:43

You've got to know the snitch better than he knows himself. You've got to know every witness, you've got to know whatever they said. You have to have a memory, you know, as they say, like an elephant. You can't, you know, forget anything. So uh I I I you know you're up, my God, I would be up sometimes till four in the morning while I'm in trial and get up at six, you know, to go to go to court or you know, get ready, etc. I could get by on four hours sleep, easy as pie. Now, obviously, when you're old, you take you know you need more rest, but when you're young, you know, like my God, they used to say that um Napoleon uh uh who was constantly at war, uh, got by on two hours sleep. So I used to get by on four hours sleep because I wanted to be, you know, masterful, I wanted to be dominant, I wanted to be, you know, the the wit the I wanted to make sure that the witness you know was impeached or not believable.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Have you ever been in the middle of trial, Tony, where the prosecutor comes up to you and uh changes the plea offer to something better? And if so, then are you now at this point involved with plea negotiations?

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Um this is what I find. Everyone knows I go to trial. Everyone knows I go to trial on impossible cases, everyone knows, and I'm talking about the the prosecution and judges, that uh I um you know um so uh what I do is that I'm blanking on the question.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Okay, so what happens if the prosecutor walks up to you in the middle of a trial and offers you a better play offer than the previous one?

SPEAKER_02 50:19

I I always tell them to go to hell. I'm going to trial. And a lot of times they'll dismiss or reduce on their own motion, but I don't negotiate and I, you know, uh prefer going to trial and uh you know hanging a case. It's uh you can hang anything, you know, if you're if you're prepared and you are um uh uh capable. But no, I don't negotiate. But you're absolutely right. See, when you're ready to go to trial, you as you know, the jury uh is all in the spectators section. They haven't started calling uh jurors yet, and then you go into chambers, and the judge is trained to try, you know, to um uh make a plea bargain. So he asks the DA, you know, what what what what do you want? And the DA says, uh, I want you know 20 years. And then judge says, you know, you can lose this case. Mr. Serrow does a big good job. Why don't you give him 10? And so the DA either says yes or no. And then the judge said, if you plea open to the court, I'll give you 10. And I always say, sorry, judge, thank you, but no, thank you. We're going to trial. And that's when you get your best offer. That's when you know, wait, don't go to these plea bargain sessions, don't go to free trials where the objective is to negotiate uh a plea. Uh, don't try to convince your client to take a plea. You know, go to trial, fight the case. Those people who don't go to trial, they don't get a good offer. Yeah, they the prosecution knows that they um are not going to uh go to trial. They never do, so they're gonna try to sell the best offer they get to their client. So they don't get a good offer. Someone who always goes to trial and who wins gets the best offer, and you always get the best offer just while you're selecting the jury. So that's been my experience, but I don't negotiate and I still go to trial.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Now they hang a lot of cases. Good. Do you have any kind of uh spiritual uh meditative mindfulness practice to keep you in the zone of winning? You know, even something akin to what the samurai's would do, just about being in the moment and not withdrawing at all.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

While I was in jail, I used to uh go to the baseball field when it wasn't being used, and I would sit behind uh the the batter's box uh cross-legged and I would meditate. And I learned uh how you know uh to meditate. I learned that uh you uh can meditate in colors, and the white light is you know the last stage of the meditation. So uh in that respect, there was a spiritual side of me that meditated, and that obviously helped a lot in terms of my uh practice of not um negotiating plea agreements.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Great. I so I do the moving meditation of Tai Chi Chuan martial art as well as sitting meditation, and you're in the middle of uh meditation central with the Zen uh whatever the the the Zen Center over there. Who taught you meditation? What form do you practice?

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Um say it again.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

What form of meditation do you practice? And who taught you meditation?

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Um I I practiced uh a form of meditation that um relied on a mantra. And my brother Richard, uh the sculpture just died, uh he uh saw a uh holy man uh in New York, and the New York holy man gave him uh and it cannot be repeated, a mantra. And he uh whispered in my ear the mantra, which you say over and over and over again, until you know ultimately uh you reach uh a stage of enlightenment. So uh I did that while I was in custody, and I think uh uh thereafter, uh while I was out, and I think that's helped stabilize my mentality uh to participate in these very difficult cases.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

The mindfulness and meditation practice helps me tremendously, uh, Tony. For instance, if a uh judge is barking at me, I'm not gonna bark back. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna apply the Tai Chi principles of uh yield, turn, and push back in a in a way that's not gonna get me in trouble and help my client. And I I wear wrist mollas. I might just touch my wrist mala beads uh to just get back to center. And sometimes, as I've said on one or two previous podcast episodes, I'll imagine when I'm in a a challenging situation in court. Uh my the the man who developed my form of Tai Chi to my left, uh uh Steve Rynch, who you may know, a great criminal defense lawyer in Denver to my right, and my peace teacher Junior Suddit to my back. So I'm really happy that you mentioned the meditation. Uh Tony, I am floored, ecstatic, and delighted that you've joined me on my podcast, as with so many of my guests. If you permitted, I could go on and on talking with you. I could just take the next red eye and visit you. But I told you we would finish at 4 o'clock San Francisco time, which we're a minute from. I want you to have the final opportunity to tell me and the audience anything you think we need to know that has not been said yet.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Yeah, I think the most important thing we haven't talked about is bonding with your fellow um uh defense attorneys. Yes, being uh part of a collective mentality that relies on each other, shares you know experiences, talks about witnesses, talks about prosecutors, talks about judges sharing uh information and uh knowledge that would help all of us.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Absolutely. And when I was telling you before I started, uh Christopher Floor, who was a guest on the podcast a couple of months ago, he's tremendous, uh consistently, almost without missing it, Tony. Every second Sunday morning over at his uh law office or Saturday morning in Maryland, he gets together people, uh criminal defense lawyers and people's lawyers, to develop their cases uh through storytelling and psychodrama, and plenty of us also talk about exactly what you said. And I'm happy you brought that up, Tony.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

And uh I wish I could attend to some of it.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

I'm sure he would be delighted to bring it to you. He and I are big fans of yours. You've got thousands of big fans. I feel so blessed that you've joined us. I am glowing for years to come that you've joined us, Tony. I thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

No, and I appreciate everything you said. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

And I mean every word without exaggerating. This has been Beat the Prosecution with John Katz and I'm a criminal defense and DWI defense lore. I don't use much Yiddish uh phrases here, but I am plotsing here. I am going nutso in ecstasy that I'm here with Tony Sarah, a great man, a great person, a great being. I am glowing, glowing.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. We welcome you contacting us at info at beat the prosecution.com by calling 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.