SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia Criminal Defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz. We are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense and DUI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I have asked the creme de la creme of people in their areas to join me to talk about what I think will interest you and what interests me. And all these people have accepted who you're hearing from. Well, how else would they be talking unless I kidnap them? I've got the pleasure, and you've got the laughter from a man I have not spoken to in almost 48 years. Not because I don't like him, but because we're reconnected through social media. This is Bob Streeton. He is a lacrosse champion. He is a lacrosse champion coach. He is my former summer camp counselor in 1976 from when I was 13 years old, and he was the lacrosse counselor there. We got reacquainted through social media. And what does lacrosse have to do with winning the prosecution, beating the prosecution? If you've heard me speak to my Tai Chi martial arts teacher two weeks ago, you know why. Because we don't win in court if we as lawyers, uh criminal defense lawyers, are not prepared uh physically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, every which way. It is my honor to introduce you to Bob Streeton. Bob, please introduce yourself to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Hello there. Yes, this is Bob Streeton, and uh everything that uh uh the lawyer said is true. So uh let's not besmirch it, but it is true. And uh I coached uh John at uh camp. I was a lacrosse director, and uh it was a lot of fun, to be honest with you. Um one of the things that uh I noticed about John was uh he wasn't the biggest guy, but he was certainly one of the fastest guys. And uh there's two things that uh coaches look for in in my sport is speed, number one, speed kills, as we all know that, and uh height. Now he was short on one of those two, if you know what I'm saying, uh sort of a pun there, but uh he was very uh willing to take instruction, and uh most anyone else we played uh against the other you know groups or in scrimmages couldn't catch him. So if he can't catch him, he's gonna be good at whatever sport it is that you know, whether it's track, whether it's uh lacrosse or basketball, although he was a little challenged in the levitity there, shall we say, uh hike. But uh anyway, it was a it was a great summer, um and uh really opened my eyes to a lot of different things. Uh certainly a lot of the counselors uh had other jobs, and uh uh our uh group leader Dan Penner. I don't know if you remember Dan Penner, he was uh of course, yes, yeah. Dan was uh he yeah, I'm still in contact with him. We get together down in Florida, he lives in Louisville, married, two kids, uh, and uh taught a class that I uh really sort of became my pet project uh class called uh Holocaust, and uh taught that for about 18 plus years and uh took 19 trips, uh busloads, not 19 busloads, but 19 trips with a busload of kids to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. And uh uh just just had some wonderful experiences uh teaching that class. And uh this July, my wife and I uh are going to go over to Germany and uh uh not necessarily focused on the Holocaust per se, but uh uh we are planning on visiting Dachau, which was the first camp in 1933, and uh uh sort of a sad social commentary. I I just uh struggle to accept that we are uh entering a continued phase of anti-Semitism and how sad that is. It's uh it's well anyway, life is always changing and we don't control it, so we have to keep dealing with it, if you understand what I'm saying, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yes, Bob. Well, uh before we get uh to the lacrosse uh part of this, uh since you mentioned the Holocaust, my peace teacher, uh Junia Suda, around who's uh at the Grafton Peace pagoda east of Troy, New York, uh back around 19 uh 93 or so, she joined with some folks on a peace walk from um Auschwitz to Hiroshima. You know, someone said to me, how do they walk the final stretch over the uh Atlantic? But um certainly I'm I'm I'm I'm very much aware that uh folks like the late Bernie Glassman, for instance, uh a spiritual leader, every year he would bring people uh over to um Auschwitz to deal with uh with the healing aspect of this. And uh this this is for another day, but certainly it's related to to beat the prosecution. Um my view is if if someone uh if someone is uh threatening uh threatening my life, I'm I'm not gonna just uh sit down and be a pacifist about it. I'm gonna I'm gonna fight back. But uh about lacrosse with fighting back and everything, uh what is your history with the lacrosse, including before and at Hobart and as a coach? And uh when you were coaching school, uh what were you teaching in school?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Uh U.S. history. And uh the Holocaust class was an electric elective class that you could take uh at Corning East High School. And uh it really sort of became my passion uh trying to share with these kids who uh uh they weren't all country kids, but you know, Koning's not a big city, it's not like we're living in Syracuse, never mind New York City. Uh but you know, to try to get kids to uh look at a bigger picture um was one of the things that I was always trying to uh deal with. Um and you know, going back to just being a U.S. history teacher, uh one of the things I found that made great sense uh was that if you have a student who uh is not invested in trying to pass U.S. history, those were the usually the kids I focused the most on. And we uh uh would have some one-on-one conversations out in the hallway, just the two of us, a student and myself, about how we were gonna uh make sure that you were gonna get through this class. I certainly wasn't gonna take the test for you, but if you don't pay attention and get some investment, which is of course the most important thing, if you're not invested in this class, uh then you're gonna look bad, and I'm gonna look bad because I haven't reached you. And I think that was one of the things that uh I really tried to pride, pride myself on was trying to get to the kid. Where, you know, where is your head at, you know, and uh for 95% of the kids, it was never hard to figure that one out, you know, because they wanted to pass the class and go on to senior year and all that kind of stuff. But uh it was, you know, there's similarities with lacrosse, you know, a lot of a lot of the kids that went on to play at the division one, two, and three level, uh, who played for me at Corning East High School, uh, they all started with me in like fourth grade, third, fourth, fifth grade. And so there was a, you know, it was a a lasting relationship. And as we all would all know, I'm sure that not everybody that you went to uh law school with uh finished and you saw them on the other side of the courtroom or anything like that. You know, some people don't make the cut, shall we say? And uh if you want to create any kind of uh successful environment or profession, you have to be fully committed and you have to work as hard as you can to get the others who work with you uh to be equally committed. And you know, all of a sudden something, you know, some evidence comes up on a Sunday afternoon, uh, you gotta jump on it, and I'm assuming. But I watch enough TV to know that. But uh I think uh one thing that kids would uh if they were to be on this, you know, uh uh interview we're talking here today, uh, would say that you know, Mr. Streeton was uh fully committed and was very interested in them, you know, not being back in my class next year because they failed. And uh that was one of the things that you know I always felt if we failed, whether it was we lost a game or I lost the interest of the student who just you know couldn't take being pushed to, you know, at least pass the class, if you know what I'm saying. Um so you know, full commitment, you gotta have both feet in. If you don't, you're only halfway there, and you're gonna your success is gonna be halfway also.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Right. So full full uh commitment is certainly part of beating the prosecution. Uh Bob, please tell everyone about uh briefly about your history uh with with your own successes with lacrosse and uh the championships uh you've achieved with uh with your teams. Uh, what are you doing now with lacrosse and to what extent is it okay with you if you're not getting championships, at least as long as the uh uh your players are giving it their all?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yes. Well, uh let me just sort of give you my uh roadmap. Uh my neighbor across the street, his father played lacrosse at Syracuse University, and uh his son gave me my first stick. I still have it down in the cellar, wooden stick, which uh it obviously is a lot heavier than the new plastic sticks that they make. And we use, you know, nobody uses a wooden stick anymore. But uh so he gave me my first stick and we would play catch out in the uh roadway, which for a beginner was very frustrating because the lacrosse ball, uh I'm sure that most of us uh remember some of the uh I don't even remember what the name was, but the a ball that you would had crazy bounces, you know, and uh lacrosse ball is the same way. Very so if you missed it and you're playing catch in the street, you got to turn around and go chase that dang thing down. But anyway, so uh I I really grew up playing uh football, basketball, and track. Uh but once I got my hands on that stick, and uh, you know, you sort of like in football, if you're a running back and you've got the ball, you don't want to give it up necessarily. But uh uh lacrosse sort of was at that time was uh basically football with sticks. You had helmets and shoulder pads and you know, gloves and all that kind of stuff. But uh so I started playing lacrosse as a sophomore. My neighbor, who gave me my first stick, uh, pushed me hard to uh play it instead of doing baseball. And uh uh that was you know the beginning of a very, very wonderful relationship back in uh 19 uh 70. Um and you know, I've I've never really looked back, to be honest with you. Uh, you know, my uh funny story, uh my upbringing was I had two parents, as all of us do or did. Uh my uh father was a world-renowned endocrinologist at Upstate Medical, and uh actually was born and raised in South Africa, where he was the top Latin scholar, which in ninth grade turned to be one of my demises because he convinced me to take Latin. And if I had a son right now uh that wanted to take Latin, I would probably have to disown him. It was so hard. Oh my goodness gracious! But anyway, um, getting off the topic a little bit here, uh uh he was just a wonderful man, uh, let me make my own decisions on my own mistakes. Uh, my mother was an eye pathologist at Upstate Medical, also, who uh had her own, she graduated from uh Revere, Massachusetts High School at uh 16, and she was valedictorian. So obviously the uh brains didn't necessarily hit me as hard as they did for my brother, my sister. Uh my sister became an endocrinologist and uh excuse Maryland and uh my brother uh retired uh five years ago uh from IBM. He was in charge of worldwide acquisitions. And uh a funny little story that uh so senior year of my uh time at Hobart, I call my mother up and say, Hey mom, I applied to Syracuse to go do grad school. And she says to me, Well, Robert, uh what what area of psychology are you gonna go into? And I said, Well, mom, yeah. And uh I said, so um, well, mom, that's the thing of it. I said, I I want to, I'm going to get a secondary degree, master's degree in uh education, history education. And my mother, who had a way to uh, you know, really turn the party, she says, but Robert, you don't want to be a teacher and coach for the rest of your life, do you? Well, here we are. Here we are.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Here we are.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Yeah, and uh it's uh it's something that's uh you know, I I greatly uh appreciate the fact that my parents didn't try to push me into something that uh I wasn't really interested in, and uh very happy with the career I had in the classroom for over 30 years and teaching and coaching.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Um so it'd be uh that's I'll interrupt a second then before we go to the championships that you've led. Uh the first time I let learned about lacrosse, uh sure enough, my dad who graduated West Point in 1958. He had a beautiful wouldn't uh like you talked about, lacrosse stick in the basement. And I asked him about it, but I really didn't pick up the lacrosse stick until summer camp. Um I remember we learned about it uh before you were the coach. You were there my fourth year. Um you were my most meaningful teacher. Um you don't I I guess it was in your contract not to push us as hard as you uh push your students. Um and and I did want to know, uh are are you familiar? I I read about this history with lacrosse that with the with the Native Americans, uh there there was some spiritual aspect of lacrosse, something along the lines of that by playing lacrosse that uh the players were uh pleasing the creator. I don't know if you ever dug as deep as that into it.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

No, no, that wasn't really part of uh the curriculum uh and uh wasn't really even part of the introduction because uh lacrosse, like so many other sports, which are niche sports, uh there is a professional league, but uh I I don't know of I don't know how many players actually make a living off of playing professional lacrosse, but uh it actually was uh in some ways a bigger sport in Canada. Uh I believe it's their national sport, at least it was at one point, and uh box lacrosse that is, um, because they also like hockey, so you play both of them in the same area, except one doesn't have ice, if you know what I'm saying. But uh anyway, uh so I I started playing um lacrosse uh when I got to high school because there was no there were no uh modified leagues in those days, at least not in lacrosse, and uh you know continued to play through high school and uh uh was fortunate enough to be selected as uh Nottingham's uh uh first high school All-American lacrosse player, which was tough because the city league I played in uh was not real strong. And uh, you know, we had uh a mixture of players, some guys that were committed, some guys who were less committed, and uh but you know, we were successful until we went to the playoffs and played against uh West Genesee and had our doors blown off, but that's okay. You know, I mean the reality is uh, you know, you have to keep going forward, which uh I did, and uh decided to go to Hobart College, uh, which at that point in time was a very strong program. In fact, uh the four years I played at Hobart, we always beat Syracuse University. Uh Hobart is now Division I. We were Division III in those days. Syracuse was division one, but not a very good division one at that point in time. Uh and anyway, uh the uh progression of uh you know playing the sport at Hobart uh gave me some level of uh shall we say credibility when I got out of college uh as a uh psychology major. I went to Syracuse, got my degree in uh secondary education history and uh at Syracuse and began my coaching career. So I helped out at my high school for um two years uh as a volunteer, uh coaching football and lacrosse. And uh then I had an opportunity, uh, my very good friend uh Mike Maser, who is the all-time uh winningest coach, at least he was when I retired, uh in lacrosse at West Genesee. Um I was lucky enough to be his assistant on a um two two of his teams, and the uh second one uh in uh 1982, uh we won a state championship at West Genesee, the first one they ever had. And uh so uh if you ever want to talk to a guy that's fully committed, or at least was then, he's retired now, he's been retired now for a number of years. Um just incredible. I mean, I I sitting on the opposite side of a table was sort of like uh, you know, somebody came down from on high and you know, spoke to you. I mean, it was just that that much reverence, you know. Uh and certainly uh uh a lot of the things that I did uh were direct offshoots of things he did, if you know what I'm saying. Um probably the only difference was being a classroom, he was a physic teacher, being a classroom teacher, uh you know, I I pushed the grades, you know. Um if so if you were one of my players, uh my expectation was you're gonna have satisfactory effort in your classes and you're not gonna have failing grades. And so uh again, part of that full commitment. Uh so John Katz, uh your math score is, you know, a 57. His teachers constantly calling me up on the phone and saying that John's not doing his homework. Uh, we have a little conversation and uh I sign you up for what we used to call study buddies. So at uh seven o'clock in the morning before the day started, eight o'clock, you and uh, you know, seven or eight other uh academic miscreants, shall we say, uh, would come and uh you would work on homework. And uh I even got my hands on uh a tape called Where There's a Will, There's an A. Don't know, I'm sure you never had to see a tape like that, but uh I showed that to them and I gave them a worksheet. You got to fill the worksheet out. And when you turn your worksheet in, if you have no answers, then we we have a one-on-one conversation. You know, are you really committed to being in this program? Because I don't want a bunch of flunkies on my team. You know, I want people that want to move forward in their lives. Um and the kids, you know, always whined about it. And uh every week they would take a weekly report guard around their teacher to hopefully verify that they were making some sort of improvement. But, you know, that was something which uh, in all honesty, uh, I don't even my mentor Mike Maser didn't do that. He was again a physic teacher, but uh if he got a report that you were being misbehaving in class, uh you you know you had a uh one-on-one conversation with Coach Maser, and uh he was uh uh he was quite a formidable man, let's just put it that way. You didn't want to you didn't want to upset him.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Okay, so if uh if people can't really uh make a real good income as a professional lacrosse player in the US, if I'm hearing you right, uh, how were you still able to create these uh championship teams? And and can can you give a flavor about the progression of uh how those championship uh teams were made and and how those championships were earned?

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Right. So uh at basically I did my best to take the uh model that that West Genesee had. Um when I first got to Corning, uh the last um game that Corning East, my former my uh uh Joe Corcoran, who had the Corning East program, uh, I was on the opposite sideline at West Genesee. We beat them in the state playoff. Uh in the semifinals, and then went on to uh beat uh Yorktown in the state championship game. Uh and uh as I tell kids all the time, who you know is more important than what you know. Um, and sure enough, uh, one of my teammates from Hobart, his father was the coach at Corning East High School, and he called me up when his father was getting ready to retire and encouraged me to apply. So uh I did uh apply and did get uh a job, started out working in the middle school, but uh that was fine too, you know. Uh but I was a lacrosse coach and JV football coach. Uh I also had a passion for football, though I think uh probably coaching. I eventually became the head football coach also, which uh pretty much solidified that my first marriage was over, if you know what I'm saying, uh, because I was always gone. You know, I just wasn't around. And uh so anyway, um I I'm not saying I regret that per se, but uh you know, things happen along the way of life. Uh and uh it really was it was way too much, to be honest with you, and in retrospect, looking back upon it now, uh it was uh it was a fool's errand. It was it was probably more than anything an ego trip, if you know what I'm saying. You know, just being in charge of the two major programs at the school. Um, we were not much for basketball and soccer came later, uh uh in terms of being added to the the school uh menu of sports you could play. But uh it's as I found the kids that are messing up in the classroom many times are doing it just because there's no one riding herd. Uh parents today, and I'm painting with a very broad brush, so I want to try to be somewhat uh uh kind. Uh a lot of times I was the first one to know that Johnny was failing math class. And uh, you know, since the parents had to drive him in, they had to explain to uh mom and dad why they needed to ride in at uh like 7:15 in the morning when school didn't start till eight o'clock. And uh that was usually the first knowledge that the parents had that the kids' grades weren't doing as well as they wanted, uh or well, let's not say what as they wanted, but just they were not aware that their son was not really achieving where he was supposed to be achieving, like passing. And uh so I, you know, the I told kids all the time, I said, if you're gonna mess up in the classroom, it's only a matter of time before you mess up on a crossfield. And I, you know, I don't want guys on my team that aren't gonna be focused on what they need to get done day in and day out, you know. And uh we also uh I got static from this, uh, but uh I was very focused on the kids making smart choices even when they were out of school. Uh you know, uh drinking was a a big thing that I was trying to encourage the boys to stay away from uh during the season, uh in the off-season, of course. Uh if I was hearing rumors, because I would hear rumors all the time. Teachers knew that if they heard something, they should go to Captain Bob and uh give him the information so he can be the one to lay the hammer on the kid that's uh you know going out every weekend and getting drunk, and then he's gonna supposedly go cold turkey when the cross starts, which uh I think we all know doesn't work very well when you've already created those habits. But uh, you know, and again, you're never just like in your business, uh, you know, sometimes you have to defend some people that uh aren't really at the core good people, but they have a right to be having a defense lawyer who's going to uh work as hard as he can to uh make the case work out for his client. And uh, you know, certainly uh that's obviously an important part of your job. And uh one of those, I think you can correct me if you want, John, but uh you need to get to know who your client really is, dig into his background and sort of because you've got to find out before the you know prosecution does about what other things might be hiding there that this wonderful person who only got caught drinking and driving once. Uh, and turns out sometimes that wasn't the first time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Bob, I'm not sure that I want to have you on my jury. Uh uh with with talk like that. But what what you say uh as far as beating the prosecution makes a lot of sense. Um, I talk to my clients to say, yes, you're penning me and I'm not penning you. So I can't force you to do the things I recommend to for self-improvement to help us with uh case negotiations, to help us with any possible sentencing. Look, beating the prosecution um is um ideally about just winning the case. And if I'm gonna win the case with my client, and my client might have to get up on the witness stand, uh, my client has to work with me to prepare his or her testimony. And even if they're not gonna get it on the witness stand, uh my client has to spend time with me to know how to present themselves in court uh because some of them uh who lay F-bombs throughout their work days and personal days don't know how to keep those F bombs out of the courtroom. I mean, I always prevent them from doing it uh for anyone to hear, but I tell them the walls and holes have ears. Do not say anything in or near the courthouse that you wouldn't say directly to the cop or the prosecutor or the judge. Um so, yes, there's that teamwork there too. Um so so the biggest teamwork I deal with then when I'm not being paid by the person on the team is uh not just the people who work uh with me at my law firm, uh, but also we have to work with expert witnesses sometimes. And uh some some of them slack. And I'm I had to have a very serious talk with an expert witness in a drug case who um arrived at the courthouse uh five minutes late because his plane was delayed and he had the audacity to fly over from Los Angeles on a Red Eye and not arrive at the Baltimore airport until around 9 a.m. that day. I said to him, I have handled several cases with you. I have never seen anything like this uh before this uh time. I looked up to you very much, uh, but I have no clue why you did this. And uh please, please don't take any more cases from me if you're gonna fly over on a red eye.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, poor choices, uh, you know, young men make a lot of poor choices. And uh uh there, I mean, there were we had a situation where one of the boys was very bright and uh a good player, but not a great player, and uh he came from money, and uh probably the core of kids, not all, but a core of the kids that I had at Corning East High School were uh they weren't in poverty, but they you know were below the standard that uh uh you know Corning Incorporated vice president's salary, if you know what I'm saying. And uh so they didn't really come from great means. And there were times where we had, well, the day the day we played a game, you were required to wear a tie. If you didn't wear a tie, you didn't play in the game. You know, the reality, well, the point is we're trying to give a perception that you know this game is important and we're gonna do some things which we wouldn't normally do. And you know, my number one, and I'm sure you feel very similar. I don't want my business or profession, especially my business, being looked down upon because kids are dressing like bums. You know, we we want to make sure that people understand we have expectations of these young men in the classroom, outside the classroom, and uh out in the community. You know, they're not wearing their ties in the community, it you know, but game day was something special. And uh the expectation was if you wanted to play, you do what I say. And you know, you're you're speaking to that topic quite well. Don't take the red eye, because the red eye is gonna leave you tired and probably looking disheveled and uh not very helpful for the defense. Am I about right on that one?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Absolutely. I I I do want to include some more entertainment uh for for the audience, uh, not just about being in the prosecution. So unless these are secrets, please uh please tell the audience is this all that was necessary for you to have winning teams or or were you were you know, I mean, uh one of the things I remember uh with you that the that you talking about uh winning games. I mean, it's very much a basic, but for people who don't know lacrosse, they wouldn't know this. You said if you want to get the ball out of the uh out of the person's stick, you don't like take your stick and and slam down on their stick, you go upwards on their stick because then what are they gonna do there?

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yes, and those were all wooden sticks, which it's very difficult for uh to keep the ball in, especially for beginners. Um, you you definitely were not a beginner, at least in my memory bank. Uh, and again, if the ball got in your stick, no one could catch you, so that made you a very valuable player, especially when we did the color wars, if you remember that. Uh, I think that was what it was called. Yeah, that was so I think you know the reality is that uh in any profession, if you want to be good, I mean I'll give you an example. My father, endocrinologist, we would come home from church, he had to stop on Sunday after church at the office to see if he got any mail in the late Saturday delivery. And uh sometimes he came out with papers, sometimes he didn't, but that was his focus. Every night he would work all you get up at uh I think he probably went like about eight o'clock after we had gone off to school, uh, and uh he would come home somewhere 4:30, five o'clock, somewhere in there, and uh he would have dinner, we would all listen to Walter Cronkite, and uh of course this was you know, as time went on, time for Vietnam War and uh uh you know, certain, you know, concerns about whether you know it would still be going on, and I'd have to be, you know, drafted. My draft number was 143. But uh so I would go to bed, and I can't tell you how many times I'm up in my bedroom upstairs, and my father is downstairs at one or two o'clock in the morning finishing up work, uh, and laughing at Johnny Carson. You know, Johnny wasn't on two, you know what I'm saying? That was his favorite show, and I just hear him belly laugh, and uh it was, you know, it that's how much he loved his work. He's you know down there at one, two o'clock in the morning after he already worked all day, and then he's gonna go sleep for about five hours and uh get up and do it all over again, you know. Um and you know, he was outstanding. He had he had some clients uh that had endocrine problems that uh one he had one lady that flew in from Australia to get treatment from him, you know. And uh obviously, if you know one of your clients is on the other side of the country, that's somewhat similar. Obviously, there's got to be a great deal of uh uh respect for your abilities, uh, that they're gonna do that. Uh I'm sure you're not the only DWI uh defense lawyer that could be hired. I'm assuming that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

But anyway, um, so we're talking about teamwork. Uh I I really I don't think you're trying to keep any of these things secret, are you? Uh aside from what you've been discussing, how do you how do you lead uh and inspire this winning team, including how they're all working among each other? I mean, the the the ball doesn't start with Johnny uh getting it first and then getting it into the goal. Uh he's working with his team members.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

That's correct. That's correct. And uh, you know, part of the reason I, you know, pushed the boys as much as I did, because they most of the boys played all summer long in box across leagues that I ran. And so uh, you know, they the program, if you were in the program at Corning East, you were playing at least a month and a half to two months worth of box across. Now, not every single day, but uh you you had uh all sorts of different lacrosse activities, and then later in my career, uh we started going to a team lacrosse camp. So uh we weren't allowed to supposedly uh coach the kids in the offseason in those days, talk about stupid anyway. Um but uh we found that you know going to team camp uh created some sort of uh espreit de corps. And uh one of the things that I always preached was, you know, you've got to have your teammates back and you've got to uh work together. If you don't work together, we're not gonna be a successful team at any sport. And uh the kids all knew that uh, you know, you didn't want to get on Bob's bad list, and that wasn't, you know, that wasn't a good thing. Uh and you need to work with your other teammates. And uh I can't tell you how many times where I'd have to uh dress down one of our star players because he thought practice could start only when he got there. And uh so we we actually were due to a big flood that happened in the early 70s in Corning, we had a dike that was uh a great uh reminder to the boys of uh consequences for not doing what you're supposed to do, you know. And uh I can't tell you how many times I stand there at the bottom of the dike watching some kid run 75 dykes because he mouthed off to one of the assistant coaches or he was uh habitually late. And uh, you know, he had to understand that there's only a certain you can only go so far uh as a coach in terms of giving the kids consequences. And uh, you know, I I know there were plenty of parents who didn't like the fact that their Johnny who wasn't doing his math work and wasn't coming to study buddies, was always late for pickup because he was out there on the dike while I'm counting his dykes as he runs up and down the dike. Um, I've I've found, and this may sound very draconic, but uh most young men don't learn valuable lessons unless there's some level of uh pain. And I don't I never hit a kid, uh, you know, but I think that's one of the key ways they learn. The other way they may learn is if you know you're our leading scorer and you break the rules, we're not breaking the rules for you, buddy. You're gonna sit and watch the rest of your teammates. And I can I I'm very happy to say that every time I suspended a top player, even a kid going to play division one as a senior, we always won the game.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Okay, well, since you're talking about that, then Bob, uh so my understanding is at least before uh cell phones were prevalent, you would call up your uh your team members before 9 30 at night to make sure they were at home.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

And you would home at 9 30, they were late, so they were not gonna start.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Whatever the whatever the time is supposed to be o'clock curfew call.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

And I told them, I said, Look, I said, if you're not answering the phone, you ain't playing. At the end of the day, that's you know, and after I've made my curfew calls, especially later, you know, kids began to get smart enough to realize that, well, it's one call, I answer the call, and now I'll go out and do my thing. And so I started getting in my car and doing curfew checks, driving around select neighborhoods, uh, probably similar to what the police do. Um, you know where problems are going to happen. And uh, you know, I can't tell you how many times I drive up to somebody's house and sit for 10 minutes, and guess what? It's 10 o'clock, he's going out the front door.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Well, okay, so to what extent would you uh get to the point where the team or many of the team members are working so well together and you had a good captain that you would let your uh your your team uh team members run with it? I mean, what what kind of balance do you use? I take it you were not a micromanager, so what kind of balance did you use between being the leader, let the captain taking the lead, or just letting the team members taking the lead on how to win?

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Well, in the game time, during the game, of course, that was you know, hey, you're a great player, you're going to Syracuse, you're going to Hopkins, wherever. Uh, you need to be a leader and you need to echo what I'm saying to the guys. And we need, you know, 13 times in 26 years we went to the state championship game. And I'm sad to report we only won one of them. We lost uh one or two of them in overtime. Um, and uh the reality is that some kids don't take instructions as well as they should. Um team captains were important to uh keep people um focused on the goal, which wasn't, you know, are we gonna run three laps? Are we gonna run four laps? You know, that those are all part of the practice plan. I'd always post a practice plan, so I used to always tell the kids there's no secrets in this program, you know, and here's the practice plan. You can look at it if you want. And uh I had one player who I will not give you his name, obviously, who thought it would be okay uh because he was ticked off at one part of the practice plan. He pulled it off the you know, off the wall where I had it uh hanging. And uh so he and I had a little little conversation and uh he didn't do it again. But uh at the end of the day, the captains uh I I think their role is much uh much bigger when you get to college than in high school. Um although I had some wonderful captains at different times. Um but it was it's hard for a kid who's the same age as the, you know, you're a captain, you're the same age as the other guys, and you're telling him, hey, you you know, you better make sure you stay in, you know, I want to violate curfew and yada yada yada. Um and most of the captains that the kids selected were very good players and uh did what I asked them to do, but I never never really leaned on them too hard for uh help with discipline, if you know what I'm saying, because kids always knew when the hammer was gonna fall. And uh a small town like Corning, uh, I heard lots of rumors lots of times, and uh, you know, even even teachers' kids who were on my team, uh, and they knew what my rules were, you know. We at the beginning of the year we have a meeting with the parents and the players, and here are the rules, you know, we're not gonna be drinking, we're not gonna be smoking, uh, you need to have passing grades and passing effort if you want to be on the field, you know, and uh so that was, you know, that those were things that you know were sort of written in stone, and uh the expectation was you were gonna follow those rules. And uh, of course, uh by the fact that we're spending this much time talking about it, you can assume that there was almost always 25% of the kids not follow the rules. So I'm chasing down leads and all that kind of stuff to get information and uh you know deal with what the consequences need to be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

And uh well, this is good, Bob. So I I told you we would finish uh around now. If we could uh continue about three to five more minutes, uh because I wanted to relate some things that I've really learned about uh how lacrosse uh relates to my winning in court. Um first of all, I think I heard you say there are no secrets, and you've laid out, I mean, there are nothing, nothing, there are no shortcuts. There are no shortcuts to the hard and committed work, the teamwork, the self-discipline, the self-respect. And it's it's like uh the Tai Chi Minister, the late Tai Chi Minister Ben Lowe said, who's the teacher of my main teacher? You know, people would say, how how are you able to uh withstand people not being able to push your arm more than an inch or let alone push your body? Six uh huge football players can't push you over. Um how is it that you're then able to um make uh make people larger than you almost bounce off your arm when they're trying to push your arm? And he said there is no substitute for relaxing and practicing, relaxing and practicing. Um lacrosse. Is it's a fast sport. It's a fun sport. Since the only football I ever did was uh uh was it touch football, flag football. I think the only time we did uh tackle football was when I was up through grade school. And so lacrosse is really the uh the most physically challenging contact sport in terms of uh having to have all that safety equipment. And uh I I don't know if this is common, Bob, but I had a lot of venom in me one day. Uh his initials are MM. If he's uh listening, he'll know who he is. We we we did uh become friends on Facebook, but he was at the camp and he was this man who was uh at 13 years old. He probably had the uh strength of a 25-year-old. He could box, uh, winning boxing people three years older than he. He had the ball. Uh I I don't think I let my uh my team down. He had the ball, and I was going for the ball, and I intentionally knocked him on his ass. And uh to this day, I know who I'm talking about. Too full of himself, of his physical strength. And and to this day, I still get glee over telling that because as long as I didn't hurt my team by it, uh I I guess he he he didn't realize that I was doing this out of venom because I didn't mean to knock him on his ass to get the ball from him. I got I got the ball from him. And uh so I just what an exhilarating game. And people say to me, so one of your key teachers is a peace teacher. I mean, are you really pacifist? I'm a modified pacifist. I believe in uh diplomacy before going into battle. Uh but as my uh guest last week, uh Bob Hilliard, who was my roommate of the trial or has come up, said we have to be merciless about against the other side to win for our side. I am merciless about it, and because I know I'm on the side of the angels, because even if my client uh committed a menace murder, I'm still on the side of the angels in terms of representing their constitutional rights. I am merciless about winning. Um and now to a lesser extent, even, uh I'm not the only one who makes analogies to lacrosse in winning in criminal defense, because in federal court and in some other courts, the criminal defense, well, the lawyers are not allowed to leave the podium. Uh so uh what what is it, Bob, uh, with the crease? Is it the goalie, the the goalie can't leave the crease unless he's going to get the ball? It's something about the crease. He he said, as long as you keep a finger, one finger on the podium, then you can be walking around the podium, and maybe the judge won't challenge you on that. And I can always say to the judge, uh, I I had a finger on the podium. What's that about the crease with the uh with the goalie? They don't they have to stay within the crease except for when they're going to get uh get a ball?

SPEAKER_02 46:55

No, no. Uh they are not required to stay in the crease, but uh the crease is uh put there as protection, because especially nowadays where they have these lacrosse players do all these fancy like dive shots and things like that. Um, there needs to be a consequence. You don't want to, you know. The most important player on a lacrosse field is the goalie. If you have a Tom Brady as your goalie, and you know, that kind of a you know, super achiever athlete, you're probably gonna do very well. Um in the Division I uh national championship game. They had a first team All-American goalie Notre Dame did, and they were defending national champs, and they won again. And uh I'm I'm sorry to say that the goalie that was against them, who played for Maryland, was one of my former players, believe it or not. And uh he didn't have as good a day as he normally did, if you know what I'm saying. But the crease, yeah, they can come out of the crease. Uh, there are goalies that make a save and go coast to coast and run down and score goals sometimes. Uh and uh that doesn't happen very often. Certainly, my my goalie that was playing for Maryland uh wasn't gonna go coast to coast, but uh it does happen. It's it's as I said, it's a protection. Uh the deep your defenders can go in there, but uh the guys on the other team can't go inside the crease.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Uh but the goal is that that's what it was. The other guys can't go inside the crease. You can stay away from the game for a while, but but uh but I I really just like that that whole idea about it's it's just it's the total uh with criminal defense with lacrosse, it's the total non-stop playing. You you you can't let your you can't let your guard down. It's not like baseball where you're just waiting in the dugout to go your turn. It's totally in at all points, uh being on guard, working with the team, with me, my team includes me and my and my client. And uh really, Bob, when I was thinking about who am I going to invite uh to be on the show beyond the um beyond the people who are in court, I thought of you early on uh because I just recalled how you were all about learning how to win, about winning, about not letting uh not letting up, about not giving up. And that is just so important in life, that's so important in lacrosse and sports, that is so important in criminal defense.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Absolutely. And uh sometimes uh you have to go a little beyond what the expectation is, I'm sure. Uh I'm I'm willing to bet every one of the cases that you've had has had at least one or two parts of it that are very different than what you normally might have. Or uh, you know, uh, you know, sometimes I'm sure you have to defend some people that uh you certainly wouldn't want your kids hanging out with, if you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

And uh, you know, it's it's you know, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig, you know, and at the end of the day. Objection. That image. That image, yes, yes. Well, uh, I I I marvel at how well lawyers on either side can get these little nuggets of information and then interject them just when they're gonna have the explosive uh effect on supporting your case, if that makes sense, you know. Um whether it's police didn't use the proper uh protocol to uh make the arrest or whatever the case may be. Uh I don't know anything about your profession, and uh you know a little bit more about my profession than uh maybe you did before, but uh it was like as we said, uh if you're not fully immersed in what your profession is, you're probably cheating yourself and your clients. And uh I have every reason to believe you're fully immersed.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Yes, and and uh related to that, Bob, is about overcovering risk. I remember when I was talking to a uh a Korean karate practitioner, someone who is much more ahead of me uh than I was in in college. I said to him, How do you break these boards with your feet in your hand? Well, Bob, you may know how they break boards with their feet in their hand, in their hands, because they they make boards that are really thin and easy to break. Uh uh, but but even if they're the the big boards of the concrete. Uh I remember, I don't know if if that was the year, you were there the year before Bob Ritchie, who was a great uh martial arts practitioner. I think he had some demonstration where people were breaking concrete with their hands, but he said you aim, you aim for a point beyond the board, whether it's with your fingers, whether it's with your your toes, because you're not aiming for a point beyond the board. You're gonna break your hand, you're gonna break your toes. So it's all about overcovering risk as well. Bob, you have been splendid being with us. I want you to uh share any final thoughts you have for the audience before we close out.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Well, um, I I do want to make sure that uh the audience knows that uh in our 13 trips to the state championship game, we did win in 1990 over our tribal Yorktown High School. And uh that was uh other than the birth of my two sons, uh, one of the happiest days of my life. Uh and uh it was uh just very interesting. Uh and again, it's sort of a comeback story. So we uh played Yorktown at Yorktown in the rain on a grass field, and most of my guys were most of my best players were about your size, believe it or not. Uh one went to Hopkins, one went to Syracuse, another one went to uh Hobart, uh our attackman, and uh we played them in the rain. They were big, strong, bigger and stronger athletes. In fact, uh two of the players that were on that team are now in the National Hall of Fame. Uh we don't have anybody in the National Hall of Fame, at least not other than my prior coach to me, uh at Corning East is in the Hall of Fame. But uh we played them in the rematch, and uh the score at halftime I think was eight to two us. And uh I can tell you that uh I was more fired up for that game than any other game I've ever coached, and uh had to go in the room to you know deliver the pregame talk and then had to leave because I started to cry.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Oh yeah. You've invested that much.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

It's still there.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Yeah, oh it's still there, you know, and I'll never forget that. I I became great friends with the coach of that team. Uh we played them again in the state championship game at least uh twice more. And uh they I mean they were a great, great program. And to have a victory over them uh uh was you know the crowning jewel of my career, and yet getting back there 12 more times, uh some which we lost overtime one time, um talk about not following instructions or so we're in a tie game and uh we call timeout and uh we get into a huddle for the defense because we're on defense at this point, and uh my defensive coordinator says, Okay, we're gonna only this guy can slide. Slide means somebody got beat and somebody's gotta go guard the guy with the ball, you know? And uh I thought it was pretty clear, you know? Only Jimmy Kuduchsky can slide, nobody else can slide. State championship, overtime, and they have the ball, Garden City has the ball, and uh this guy does a sweep across the you know, up top, whatever, and uh throws the ball to another player on Garden City who starts dodging towards the cage, and lo and behold, somebody who is guarding the top player on Garden City's team leaves that guy in front of the goal alone to go slide, and it wasn't he who was supposed to slide. They score the winning goal because he didn't follow directions, you know. You know it's uh if you do what you're told, I always tell the kids if I tell you to do something and you do it and it doesn't work, that's on me. If you do something on your own, even if it works, I'm still gonna let you hear it when you come to the sideline because you didn't do what you were instructed to do. And uh you know, sometimes in all situations, I'm sure, you know, if you tell your client we're not gonna talk about this topic, we're only gonna talk about these topics, uh, I'm I'm sure you prep your guys, uh your people very well to, you know, make sure that they don't step on a pile of poop or something, you know what I'm saying?

unknown 56:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

It's only gonna cause you. I mean, because you know, you can't control what your client says when he's on the stand. You can object, I'm sure. And and again, I don't know your job. I only know this from TV, but uh, you know, you can object. Um, you know, anyway, I'm glad I'm not in your job. Let's just put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

And I'm glad that I am, and I'm glad that I've known you since 1976, Bob. You've all heard from Bob Streeton. Look him up. Wow, your eyes have your eyes bug out of your head with all the successes he's had and lacrosse and life. Streetness is spelled S like Sammy, T-R-E-E-T-E-N. Thank you so much, Bob, for being with us. And if you hold on a moment after we go off air, I'll continue speaking with you.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. We welcome you contacting us at infobeatheprosecution.com by calling 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.