SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I'm a Fairfax criminal and DUI defense lawyer. I'm having more trouble than ever before containing my excitement because I'm speaking with Bob Hilliard, my friend and roommate from the Trial Lores College. I think this is the first time we're actually talking versus emailing in years and years. You have been hearing from the Creme de la Creme, from everyone in their fields, from everyone I've been interviewing, especially Bob. We call each other Bubba. We'll let you know why. Maybe it's a little more common in Texas where he is. Bubba, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Hey, Bubba. Yeah, so um I'm Bob Hilliard. I practice law around the country, but my home base is down in South Texas, Corpus Christi. Um, I have a law firm of approximately 40 lawyers. Um, we have an office in Austin, Texas, as well, where we focus primarily on social justice and antitrust. My law firm down in Corpus, again, is a local law firm but nationally based. And we do personal injury, we do commercial litigation, we do cases that need doing. And you're right, Bubba's pretty common in Texas. I think the reason that you uh were given the moniker by me is because you are the anti-Bubba when I met you, right? You're city guy, DC lawyer. You were at the trial lawyers college in the middle of beautiful Du Bois, Wyoming in the mountains. And you know, Jerry Spence uh brought his unique and common sense lessons to both of us. Uh and you know, and I I really believe that um, and you and I are a good example, John, because I really believe that two people who have completely different upbringings, backgrounds, experiences connect uh authentically and easily. And so, you know, bubble was the start of it when we started to kid each other about those two names, but but we're 30 years past that, and and still we feel the same connection. And you know, and to me, that you know, that's a that's a easy dichotomy with trying cases in front of juries, you know, the connection that you make with juries.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

That connection, we'll talk about connection. When I uh chose to go to the trial or his college, it was a lot less about Jerry Spence and a lot more about Steve Rench, who's this great trial in Denver. He must be in his uh late 80s, early 90s now. And he spoke to some public defenders and was telling about how the trial horas college, you really get into it, you get into it deep. And I decided to put my faith in him, knowing he'd be there every day there, uh, all four weeks. And uh someone who went there in 1994, the year before us, told me just keep an open mind. Oh my gosh, what a ride that was. Uh a lot's happened since then. Uh Bob, um, I want to start talking about blue jeans. Um, do you still only wear a suit when you're in court?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yes. Uh only when I'm in court. And um, so uh the the you know, I live in a town which has very strong Hispanic traditions. And the uh standing order of our courthouse is during the summer you can wear the the Mexican Wyamberas, which is the um the shirts that are worn for special occasions. You've seen them, they're they're decorative, they're beautiful, and I have a closet full, and I'll I'll put those on if I'm going locally to to a hearing. Um, but I find myself now trying cases uh outside of my own town. So I, you know, I still put on plenty of suits, um, still wear my jeans and boots when it's time for jeans and boots. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

All right. And uh when the World Trade Center still existed, is that the place where um your opponent thought that you were the camera guy and uh and and said that he was gonna kick your ass?

SPEAKER_01 4:48

You know, those stories are are are many and and legend, right? I've you know I've kind of been underestimated not as much anymore, it's simply because of the internet, and it's easy with two clicks to figure out that you know it's probably a uh you know, gonna be a battle when I show up. But early on, there were there were plenty of times when, especially taking on some of the you know, the blue-blooded law firms around the country that you know I showed up and was underestimated. You know, my I want to get back to what you said about the trial lawyers college because my my reason was different than yours. And you know, and I think you know, we we practice in front of juries, both you and I, but we do different types of practice. And what I found on the on the back end of it is the relationships that I made, uh, including you, including Dax, uh, and for your listeners, I would so encourage them to look up our friend, the late Dax Cowert, C-O-W-A-R-T, probably the epitome of courage, of beauty, of power, and of vulnerability. And if you'll allow me, I'll tell the quick Dax story if we have time. Of course. So Dax Cowert was a Texas uh uh boy. He was a football player, he was a fighter pilot, and he was in a terrible accident with his father where uh a sea of propane ignited, and um he was burned severely, lost his eyes, his hands, disfigured terribly. Uh he was holding his dad's hand in the ambulance, going to Parkdale, uh Parkland in Dallas, the hospital where they took John Kennedy, actually. And uh his dad died while holding Dax's hand. So Dax, you know, stayed in the hospital for a year and was um treated against his will, even though he was an adult and he didn't want to live anymore. But he did. He was treated and he survived. And over the course of years, he he struggled um with a lot of things, but ended up going to law school without being able to read Braille, without being able to see, got a Texas Tech Law degree. And you and I met him at the trial lawyers college. He was in our class, and so you know, I I became very, very, very good friends with Dax. As a matter of fact, I know we're not on the camera, but after he died, his wife sent me this, which I see every day. It's Dax's stick. You know, he's he's part of my my life tuning fork, so to speak. And you know, and I talk to him often, it sits right here by my office desk. So anyway, I invite Dax down to work for me in Corpus Christi and become a trial lawyer, and I give him a case uh by himself uh in front of a jury. And uh I I assign a young lawyer to him and he he tries this case, and it it was documented well. There was a 2020 special on the entire case, and there were some reenactments that's worth watching. But the the point is he he was a a blind attorney with no hands that was severely disfigured and visually difficult to look at if you didn't know him. And then he was, you know, he he transformed into a beautiful human being once you got to know him. But he sang a song to the jury in closing argument. He sang Bob Dylan's girl from the north country, because in his view, that told the story of his client's pain and his client's need to uh ask the jury for assistance. And Dax was a lot of things, but he was not a good singer. Um, didn't stop him a bit. And and you know, and I I tell Dax's story to my young lawyers, I tell Dax's story to friends because to me, you know, we all try to get to a point where we have that kind of blind courage where we don't worry about the the looks and the glances and the second guessing about what people are thinking. And Dax got there for you know terribly difficult reasons in his life, but he got there. So he reminds me, and his walking cane, uh, which I know he held, you know, for many, many years, reminds me often of his lessons to us. And you know, the denomois is he, you know, he got almost 10 million dollars for his client and and uh and felt like he was once again doing what he was meant to do.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Well, uh I got very emotional and still and when you showed his uh his walking stick, I remember Dax's walking stick uh at the college. I remember you bought him one, and uh, I think it was that day that we all went down, some of us uh to be in the Tetons with him and his wife, uh woman who's his wife at the time. And um I mean what a catalyst you have been. Uh you convinced Dax to move from Salt Lake City to Corpus Christi to practice with you. This was before we had the internet like a firestorm where maybe he could have done a lot of his work, still from Salt Lake City. Uh I remember you you bought a dog for uh for a lawyer, a medical malpractice lawyer's son in DC. You know, that's that's pretty ballsy, ballsy to think that they're gonna not just put it in the pound and actually raise it. And with me, you would repeatedly tell me over the course of the four weeks we're together, you've got to leave the public defender's office. You've got to go into private practice, you've got to be your own boss, you need more confidence, you gotta find your passion and realize where it is, including uh your your love in your relationship. And you pointed out that day when you said to me that uh word was that maybe Bill Clinton, when he was president, because this was 1995, was maybe going to come to the uh to the college. And I got real pissed off about the idea if he was gonna come with Secret Service because I didn't want my uh my liberty restricted. And uh and and you said you reminded me, get you know, get your passion from then. I I think a lot of what was going on then is that I just felt in such awe and um and and just trying to find myself among all the people there at the college that uh that I wasn't really uh showing my uh my true feathers, colors, the whole thing, uh wings, um, until soon after I left. But luckily I went into uh uh private practice um three years later, no, a year after the college, and uh then I became my own boss uh three years later. And I remember when I emailed you about that, your response was way to go, Bubba. Uh but you know, you you weren't the only one, but uh you you were a great influence for me just to move forward and just not look back. And that was just so essential because when I went to law school, I knew I wanted to be my own boss, and here I am.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Well, you know what I saw in you, Bubba, is you know a uh the uh like a an egg, you know. I mean, you had so much readiness to do what um what you now have have done. And what's amazed me over the years about you is your consistency to your path that you have chosen. You know, some of the decisions that you make take um take a huge amount of personal, professional risk, and um, and a continued commitment to where you want to be as a you know, as a dad, as a husband, as an attorney, because you've heard me say it before. I I really do not think that there are any walls between who you are in any given moment of the day. You can't be a true advocate and trial lawyer, and then come home, you know, and be an asshole to everyone in your life because you have so much pressure at work. If you find yourself being that way, then more than likely it bleeds over into other parts. And it's difficult, right? It's difficult to be the fully formed person that you need to be today because that's not the person that you're gonna need to be tomorrow. So you can't, you can't, and you haven't done this, which is impressive to me. You can't say, okay, box checked. I can quit doing the hard stuff now. You know, I mean, the hard stuff is there every single day, and then the beauty of the of the results is is someone somewhere uh hears you and and thinks about themselves, and then suddenly, you know, goes and takes their child to the playground for the afternoon and blows off uh you know a uh work or passes a deposition to someone else. Because, you know, if if you're going to be a trial lawyer, if you're going to talk to folks, you have to know who you are, and you have to bring your story to your client's case. Because what I've what I tell the lawyers that um I'm fortunate enough to have work at Hilliard Law is listen, um it doesn't matter who you're representing, it matters what how they make you feel about them. Uh you'll figure out liability, you'll tell the liability story, you'll put on the experts in order to sustain your verdict on liability. But if you don't get to the true human story for you and tell it through the lens that uh is your experience, the jury's not going to hear you. And the jury will hear you regardless of just like me and you. We have no shared personal experience. We grew up in different parts of the country. We grew up in, you know, I grew up in the country, I had horses and cows, and you you had your own life, but we have a connection because the human connection is is just uh colored on the on the on kind of the atmosphere of itself with how you're raised. But the human connection is the core, and that's where you have to go when you when you talk with folks. I had a I just finished a jury trial where it was very difficult for me because it was the loss of a husband suddenly and unexpectedly who burned in a truck uh while he's driving down the highway to work. And his daughter, who um who is, you know, I immediately related to my daughter, kept sending her dead dad texts to his phone, you know, and those texts were brutal, brutal to read. The jury couldn't hardly, you know, um comprehend that this nine-year-old little girl was texting her dead dad as if he was still alive, begging him to come back. You know, and that that's a that's a universal fear and connection. Uh and it was very difficult as I put those texts on the screen to and talk to the jury, I literally just let let the silence make the argument because I could not speak. And and and they felt the reason why, you know, I've I simply couldn't do it. And uh that willingness to go there personally for me is is is how um I'm able to, you know, still do this and still love it and and pick the cases I want to try um and make the effort to you know to help those who have asked me to help them.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Well, you've certainly taken a lot of risks in your life. I think one of them was didn't you become your own uh boss only after being out of law school for two to three years? And then also can you tell the audience about um the Hernandez case? I think that was the one that you took to Supreme the Supreme Court, and also about the gentleman um in Minnesota, and you helped uh get him out of his multi-year prison sentence uh where his car uh that he was driving killed somebody, and that was through no fault of his own. It was because of a defective car.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Sure. Yeah, when I got out of law school, I took a job with a lawyer down in Corpus Christi who is a great trial lawyer, and he asked me to work for him for two years. And on the anniversary of the second year, he fires me and tells me that there's room for one rooster in the hen house, and I don't seem to appreciate who that rooster is. And I told him, Yes, I do. So off I went at you know, 28 years old. I went down and bought a Radio Shack phone, which Radio Shack still existed. And uh I rented a small office in a in a group of offices with um landmen, architects. We shared one secretary. You know, I had my Radio Shack phone, and um, I had taken a few cases uh with me that I had been working on that the lawyer who fired me allowed me to take. So I started trying cases immediately. And my first case uh, and and this is a story I don't think you know, Bubba, is I represented a young man who was a wheelchair athlete and he was competing at an Olympic event in Dallas, and he was burnt severely by the uh holiday in hot water because the hot water heater didn't work properly. Uh he didn't feel any of the burns, but it kept him from competing for a year. His name was Donnie Contreras, and um, and he and I were a year apart in age. Uh, our birthdays were the same date, and um, he was in a wheelchair because he had been shot uh when a crazy guy came to his high school and started shooting kids. Um so we sued Holiday in and um got a good verdict. And I tell you that story to push the pause button and fast forward because we stayed friends, we stayed good friends for 20 years, and one day he sends he calls me and he says he was having trouble with his daughter, and his daughter couldn't couldn't really find her way, and he wanted some inspiration. So listen to this. I send him the 2020 video of Dax. So he calls me up four days later, and he is like beside himself. He can't he can't talk. And it took me a while to figure out what was going on. And here's what was going on the day he was shot, he was transported to Parkland Hospital in Dallas. And he said, I stayed up all night, even though I was newly paralyzed, sitting in a chair or in a wheelchair next to the guy in the bed next to me, who I thought had been in a motorcycle accident, praying with him the entire night because he was going to die. And that was Dax. So he and Dax shared a room in Dallas and he always thought Dax had died. And he was literally, when he called me, driving into Corpus Christi from the town next to us and asked me where Dax was, I said, He's over at Twin Dolphins, right? You know, right here. He said, I'm coming in. And Dax had always told me about this guy that had stayed up with him the entire night praying with him. Uh, and then all these years later, I had represented that guy, and that guy and Dax then became friends. So I've detoured a little bit from your question, but that story still gives me goosebumps because I can't believe it. Um so uh Kuafong Lee, I'll I'll tell you about him. Uh over the course of the decades, I became a product liability lawyer, board certified um um in both civil trial and personal injury trial. And I got invited up to Minnesota to to look at a case uh against Toyota on behalf of a family who had been injured and killed by someone who hit them from behind while they were at a stoplight. An African American family had had lost uh some family members. And so when I went up there and started looking at the case, I asked about the guy that had been sent to jail for involuntary manslaughter for running into the back of them. And the fella who invited me said, Well, that's not really your worry. You're not here to worry about that guy. You're here to, you know, help these folks. And I said, Well, I'm not interested. And I leave his office and I find um the Kua Fong Li was his name. I find Kua's lawyer, great guy, good lawyer, good criminal defense lawyer in in Minneapolis named Brent Schaeffer. And I said, Look, I think I think I can help you get Kua a new trial, a hearing on this new evidence. And he was skeptical at first, but he uh we spent time together, and so he got the judge to Grant us a new hearing on that evidence. And Kuwa had been in jail for four years. He had six more to go, I think. And the judge gave us a week-long hearing. So I brought in the experts and showed, in my view, unequivocally, that Kuwa had been telling the truth when he said he was pushing the brakes as hard as he could, as hard as he could, as hard as he could. And the car was accelerating. And no one really knew about sudden acceleration cases at the time. And even though Kuwa was leaving church with his pregnant wife and his dad, no drugs, no alcohol, he was sentenced to prison. And so after a week-long hearing, which was as contentious as you can imagine, the district attorney would go on TV and uh affect a uh Texas accent to make fun of me. And it was it was brutally adversarial. But at the end of the hearing, the courtrooms packed, packed with uh um the Hmong community because Kuwa was from the mountains of Laos, Vietnam, and the Hmong community is one of the biggest in the country, and uh as well as the African American community because they were there as well, um, the folks who had been injured and killed, but they were also on Kuwa's side because they heard the evidence. So the judge started reading from uh the evidence that she had decided she uh was going to use um in rendering her verdict. And we're in the courtroom, and Kuha's in his prison jumpsuit, and his English is not that well, not that good. And she's reading from her handwritten yellow pad. And and I remember when she said this line, um, Mr. Lee, a lot of folks in the legal process let you down, including me. And then Kuwa's looking at me because he doesn't get you know the colloquisms of uh he doesn't know what's going on. So I just wrote on a on a uh yellow stick'em, you are free. And I slid it to him. But she hadn't announced it yet, but I knew it was coming because you could you could read the room, and he thought he was he thought he was great. So he jumps up, like, okay, this is great. So I said, no, no, no, sit down. And so she finishes and says, you know, I'm releasing you. Uh, you're not even going back to be uh processed. I've contacted the the state prison. Yeah, you're going from this courtroom home. Uh, and and on behalf of the state of Minnesota, we, you know, I want to apologize. Um, and so Kuwa went home. And he stayed, you know, to our point when we started this, you know, the relationship uh factor of life. So Kuwa and his family became hugely important to my family. They traveled to Corpus Christi during Christmas and stayed with us. We go up there and and and and stay with them. My my uh third oldest son had to go up to a medical clinic in Rochester, and Kuwa drove and picked him up and brought him to his house for the day just to comfort him. You know, just uh the relationship just begins when you meet a client. It it doesn't end, at least in in the way that I practice law. So then we sued. We sued Toyota uh on behalf of um the Lees and the African-American family, and we tried it to a verdict. And, you know, there's some good articles in there about uh a peculiarity of Minnesota law is is that defendants do not get a rebuttal in closing argument. You know, they argue first and then I argue, and that's it. So there's no standing up after I finish to rebut my points. And so I made a strategic decision during the civil case that my biggest point that I thought the evidence supported, but no one really caught, I wasn't going to bring up again until my rebuttal. I wasn't gonna point it out again. Completely caught them by surprise, but it was completely supported by the evidence, and it completely won the case force. And as I'm bringing it up, they are standing up, John, and objecting and yelling. And and the judge is saying, look, it's in the evidence. You chose not to address it once he brought it up with his expert, and he just let it lay there and grow. Um, and so uh the jury gave the plaintiffs, you know, I think 10 or 15 million dollars. Excuse me. And and that was that. Uh but again, I I, you know, I want to I enjoy trying the case. I enjoyed the battle, but I really enjoy knowing I can text Kuwa right now and he'll call me in five minutes, or I can call him up and ask him about his kids because they were first generation monks, and they and he and his wife now have advanced college degrees, and his and his children are doing well, and his daughter had a bout with serious cancer, which he was there for, but he would not have been had he still been in jail because it was during that window. So you never know what ripples you, you know, you create and start when you decide you're going to throw your pebbles into some pond in Minnesota.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

That's amazing. Well, I I don't I don't know how I move on to Hernandez, but that was another uh big risk you took. And um please tell about uh Hernandez. I mean, I I read what happened to the Supreme Court, what a roller coaster that was.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, Sergio Hernandez was a boy in Mexico who wasn't um coming into the United States, he was just playing on the border, and uh Border Patrol agent was aggravated with the teenage kids, and they were probably being teenage kids. And um the video of the taken from the top of the bridge shows that he drove uh his bicycle down. The border patrol agent grabbed one kid, the other kids ran off. And uh um the Border Patrol agent pulled his service revolver and and shot and killed Sergio Hernandez, and he was just a boy, and so we we brought the lawsuit suit in the United States. Um we first brought it in El Paso, uh, where it was kicked out, uh, with the the legal theory being look, uh Sergio was standing in Mexico, he's a Mexican citizen, he can't come in the United States and pursue these claims. And our response was he was shot by a um officer of the United States government whose boots were on American soil when he pulled the trigger, and the and the bullet simply traveled, you know, across an invisible international border, and he committed murder, in our view. And so then we took it to the Fifth Circuit. Uh and they, you know, they made short order of our claim. They they were not impressed with the idea that that there was not immunity for the police officer and that Sergio had a right to be there. So we, you know, we um filed for writ of Sergio and we got it granted. And I'd made a deal with my best friend from college, my lifetime best friend, my Austin law partner, that he could argue at the trial court, he could argue at the Fifth Circuit. But if it got to the Supreme Court, I was gonna argue it. And so we made that deal from day one. And so suddenly it was, you know, it was on. And um uh I've done appellate work, John. I'm not an appellate lawyer. You know, I've argued at you know, every regional court of appeals in Texas and the Texas Supreme Court and the Fifth Circuit, but it's not what I do, you know. I I don't practice that day in and day out. So I stopped my practice for about four months and and trained and and went to these mock trials in Georgetown and all over the country where they have, you know, they have folks who will tell you what to expect. And at the same time, we were getting solicited by specialists. You know, you can't do this. Are you nuts? You know, you you suck at this, man. Because I, you know, I mean, I was learning a new way to, you know, it was the Supreme Court. So I was listening to arguments and and Scalia had just passed away, and you know, I really admired him, but I um I did not miss the idea that I was going to be fielding questions from him uh uh on this issue. So we had an eight court panel. Um, so the first time we argued it, we uh um it was sent. Well, the argument was you know it was great. So the the first argument we you get there and they put you in a special room, and then as as they call our case, and I'm walking uh into the courtroom, and it was Hernandez was one of the the seminal cases of the of the year. So it was packed, and there was a long line to get in the courtroom that morning to listen to these arguments. And my nephew, who had come from Texas, you know, he was in in the back of the line, and the process is they rotate people in and out so you can get an experience of hearing the argument. So I'm walking up and and I had my boots on, and there was this big round column with a square base, and I took a turn too quick, and I uh hit my shin so it's like when you bite your tongue and you're chewing and you don't realize how hard you bite. I hit my shin so hard that I knew as a fact that my boot was filling up with blood. So I lean over and I'm just on my on my knees, just just trying to breathe. And the clerk says, Mr. Hilliard, we got to go. And I said, like, give me a minute. So I'm trying to catch my breath, and uh so adrenaline takes over. I go in, and um, the first thing they do is they bring in the new uh attorney general for the Trump administration, the first the guy, um, the guy from Alabama, kind of a small statured fella. Sessions? Yeah, was it Sessions? Oh, I some name with an S, I think. Yeah, and so they swore him in right next to me, and you know, and I was uh as you know, I I've keep my views pretty clear on on that side of the politics. And I was looking at him in his sessions, and I was thinking, you know, you could you could just decide you want this to go a different way right now. But I let him get, but he got sworn in, and so it would that that was that was good. So I made my argument, it went fine, and and what what I had learned beforehand is, and you probably know this, is the Supreme Court justices use their questioning to talk with each other, right? Yeah, so they're asking you questions, but they're really, you know, it's just Sotomayor talking to the chief and and and sharing their views. And you know, it was clear that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was gonna side with us, and she was strong on her questions, which were really softballs that she just wanted me to confirm. And then the harder questions came from some of the conservative members. Um, and then uh Justice Kennedy was still on the bench, and he ended up, I think, writing the first opinion. So in my rebuttal, which I had taken too long at first, I only had about four minutes, but in in my rebuttal, uh he asked a question, and I used a hypothetical. I said, you know, Sergio had a brother, his name was Manuel. And let's say that the bullet that started in the United States had actually killed Manuel, who had come into the United States, but passed through Manuel and then on to Mexico and killed Sergio. So we wouldn't be here right now if this was Manuel's case, but it's that same bullet that just went a few more feet and killed Sergio. So, in my view, it doesn't make sense that you know that you can't, that justice stops at the invisible wall with this with this type of conduct. And I thought Justice Kennedy nodded like and set and leaned back. And I thought that was a moment that I had with him. So what they did was they sent it back to the Fifth Circuit and they said, Look, you you know, you guys probably would have made a different decision had you read this opinion that came out after your decision. Not my Sergio Hernandez opinion, but one between the two events. So they immediately wrote another opinion saying, Nope, doesn't make a difference. We're still kicking them out. So they granted cert again. And uh we had then become friends with some uh a fellow who's a good friend of mine, uh Steve Laddock, who was the University of Texas law guru, great human being, great dad, great husband, but a but a generational pellet guy. And and and you know, we we share the same passion for sports and be and we're we're friends. And I had done my my time there, and I asked him if uh if he would like to come and argue it, and and I would be happy to sit with him, and he said, sure. So we had a year together. Um, and you know, and to this day, he's now at Georgetown, he's right down the street from you. And to this day, you know, we're you know, we're like me and you, you know, we had an experience professionally, but it it it pales to the the friendship and the relationship, which which is is really my tuning fork in life. You know, I you know it in Texas, especially South Texas, we have a saying because we're right on the Gulf of Mexico. Uh, I have a bay boat, I like to go catch redfish and trout, but the saying is half of fishing's who you're fishing with. And it's the same with practicing law. It's the same, you know. You know, there are defense lawyers uh on a national level who are great human beings, and I really enjoy getting to know them. And the adversarial process doesn't create you know a fissure between two people who want to, you know, meet other interesting people. Half of practicing law is who you're practicing law with. And so it's a it's a simple you know mantra, but it it serves me well because just like with you, John, I need relationships, right? I need the the love and the power and kind of the centering that relationships bring me and that I feel when I bring my you know my personal self to my friends like you.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Okay, so you're talking about the um the people you're with. And so if any my understanding is correct me if I'm wrong, so you have these two lumber firms, and if anyone looks up um your lumble firms, just looking up Robert C. Hilliard, they're gonna see a bunch of lawyers there. And um, and anyone who didn't know you before this show is gonna probably see, well, there must be a little bit of overhead here and a lot of administrative gumbly gook uh going on. So how much do you even get involved with the hiring and farming and and administration of your firms, or are you just uh trying the cases and doing what you like? And and what do you and your firms do to find the right people for your uh for your two firms, uh the lawyers and everyone else, and to make sure they know how to do it and and and that they get properly uh trained and developed?

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Right. That's a great question. Well, if they look up me, they're gonna see that in the pictures of those lawyers, there's this beautiful Hispanic woman named Katherine Hilliard, and she is the key to the kingdom. She she is, you know, I uh she's my life mate. She's um the most single most amazing human being I've ever met. Uh, we've been married 17 years. Uh, we met when I sued her client, John Deere, in a in a case. And um, when I walked into the first deposition and saw her, it literally, it literally was like Cupid's arrow. Like, wow. And so we got married. We have we shared two children together, we share a blended family of seven children together. So she runs the entire household, but she's the smartest lawyer I know as well. And early on when she joined my firm, she was there with me trying cases and she could argue uh motions, the appellate side, really, really, really just just brilliant. And then as the firm grew, she wanted to do the admin side. She she loves that side of the practice of law. She, you know, she deals with our the head of our HR, the head of our IT. And again, you know, you may look at my firm and go, wow, well, that's a big firm. And that does someone out there may say that really doesn't work for me. But remember, I started with a Radio Shack phone and one office by myself, and and just stayed like you, just stayed the path of the um the song that I heard, and the firm grew. And the the expenses Catherine handles, she reviews. Um, the hiring process is the same. And what I found in that regard is people are drawn to practice in a way that allows them the freedom to be who they think they're becoming. You know, we you know, I I always tell my lawyers, look, I'm never going to second guess, you know, a decision that you make just because of an outcome, as long as it's an authentic decision, ever. Uh, you know, the only time I get grouchy is if I see that there is some, you know, uhuthentic behavior in regards to what's going on. And you know, I'm fortunate to have two of my children practice with me, you know, Alex Hilliard and Emily Hilliard. And you know Emily, and you may know Alex. Excuse me. Um, and Alex, he's a trial lawyer, extraordinary, you know, a lot of big verdicts under his belt, but he practices the way that he grew up seeing me practice. And that that's beautiful to me. And you know, and I know the baton is slowly being passed, and and that the next generation will do it their way, not my way. But I think that just like when I heard Jerry Spence talk about his needs uh and his uh the value of the self-archaeological dig, he called it. I knew that was that was good advice, but that's not advice that I just cut and paste into my life, right? I just listened to it and say he had the courage to do it. So where's my path? It's not Jerry's path, but it's it's um permission to find my path. And so I hope what I give my lawyers as as you know, I insist on, you know, professional excellence, personal responsibility, and um, and the the ability to tell a story through your own eyes, is is that they find they're happy, you know, that they find that their their life is is is fulfilling. And we really do insist that people's families are first and foremost in our law firm, that their children are, that you know, that their wife is, that their parents are, that it is it we have a a monthly email that goes around where you give uh attaboys to somebody for whatever you just say, I want to give an attaboy to so-and-so, because you know, at 6:30 in the evening, he could have he could have done this, but instead he he stayed and he supported me and I was overwhelmed. Just the personal stories that I read every month reminds me that you know it's not about me, you know, it's just about creating a place where people just like you, when I saw you at the trial lawyers college, you know, I I had nothing to do with the success over the next 30 years for you. Yet it was enjoyable to see that we shared the same, you know, need and path, which is probably not very unique. You know, other people probably feel in their heart that's what I want to do. I wish I could find the way to do that. You know, it's it's the old adage, well, today's a good day to do that.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Well, the name of the show is Beat the Prosecution. We've been talking a lot about that. Uh so what do you do if you're still experiencing it, which I assume you do, uh, when your opponent's acting nasty, when the judge is acting nasty.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Or underhanded, worse. Yeah, I've had it. I had a that case I told you about with the little girl's uh texts. So we had some in in our view, some serious misconduct on behalf of the car manufacturer's uh representation. Um and it kind of bled into some pretty serious jury misconduct. And this was a three-week trial, probably half a million dollars in expenses. Um and because it was a verdict for the defendants, it seemed peculiar to me because it it didn't, I couldn't figure it out. I mean, I knew, you know, I've tried enough cases to know when when what the verdict will likely be based on how the evidence comes in. And sure enough, the day after the verdict, one of the jurors texts the bailiff to report some misconduct on behalf of another juror. And so there was a a full blown hearing, John, where jurors came in and testified about what happened. And um in that case, you know, I turned to uh a very fair trial judge to seek justice uh and ask for a new trial, which she granted. Um but if it if it's the court that uh is uh uh you know sees the practice of law different than the way that you're handling it, you know, you have to pivot. You know, you have to find a way to have the court uh hear you. Um you know that there's always a a point of no return where, and I've experienced it too, where you finally just have to tell the judge, listen, you know, all with all due respect, you know, you this is wrong. I need to make a record as to what's going on with you. Uh and and I, you know, the writing on the wall is is not subjective here, but we're going to be sure that the record is as clear as possible. But to me, that's really the the last resort because uh all in all, like most lawyers, judges try to get it right. You know, they want to get it right, they want to listen to you, but you have to break through their day in and day out routines to where they are now listening. And the only way to do that is is get them to trust you and not abuse the trust that you begin to develop with them. I had a harder time when I was younger with that, you know, but but now I think that just given, you know, where my past's been, that sometimes uh I get to uh have a judge give me his ear or her ear quicker. And um, and I make a huge point never to misrepresent, never to overpromise, always to be authentic and true, even if it hurts my case. You know, because uh you know, a fact is a fact, personally. I feel that way, and I'll share it with them uh because I know when I leave that courtroom, I still have a life to live, and I'm not going to take a right turn at trial just to get an advantage when the only true turn is a left turn, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Well, uh, Bubba, what I've done is I've taken what Steve Rench advised, which is a tough, a difficult judge is like a boulder in the middle of the road. You can either try to lift up the boulder and uh while you're driving down the street and give yourself a hernia or worse, or you can drive around the boulder. Uh, but one great thing about me doing this podcast is some of the guests that I have, including you. So I reconnected with my uh martial arts teacher, Julian Shu, who's one of the world's greatest, and he's here just eight miles from me. And that inspired me to get back to making sure I didn't miss a day of Tai Chi. And one thing we do in Tai Chi Chuan is when we get pushed, uh, first we yield to the push so there's nothing to push against. And then often the opponent is then off balance when we're yielding to the push when they expect resistance, and then we clobber them, or we just harmonize the uh disharmonious situation. We have to have non-anger because anger is weakening. So the idea is one idea is to relax and sink uh that negative anger into your Tantien where you've developed all the Tai Chi in your abdominal area. Uh blah blah, it drives prosecutors so crazy when they see they can't push any of my buttons and they can't find the buttons, and it is just so fun. Now, you know, fun is part of the practic reason why we do this, but of course, the the key thing is to win now.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Well, and let me let me add to that real quick, and that is a lot of times they mistake how you have decided to practice law with weakness, and you have to be merciless when you have got them in the trap, right? You know, and there is no amount of relationship banter that will change the direction of where your case is going when you have set it up right, tried it right, and you're going to win the case. And you know, they they uh I've seen this before where they'll try to tap into you know the authenticity that you share to get a favor. Come on, man, don't do this, or right. But but you have to be firm on both ends of it. You know, you have to you know look them in the eye and say, You saw it coming, you know, this is gonna happen, uh and you know, and you'll survive ultimately. Or you can listen, or you can settle.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Oh, yeah. I mean, I heck, I mean, I I was getting into fist fights by the age of four or five with my older brother and with classmates in school and summer camp, as much as maybe I didn't enjoy doing it at the time. I thank them now because it is about being merciless. I want to inspire the listeners, including my clients, about something you told me about when we started at 6 a.m. uh Texas time, Corpus Christi time, and 7 a.m. my time. And I think you said you had already started the day two hours before. And so why do you do that? Uh, how does that help you? And and when do you typically end your day if you don't have a trial coming right up or a deposition coming right up?

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Yeah, so um I get up, you know, around four and and I open my I open my laptop, have some coffee, uh, and I decide what cases need my attention and what I want to have done in the cases. And I'm a big texter, so I don't mind texting folks at 4 a.m. in the morning, even though I don't expect a reply, and my wife fusses at me for it because uh it allows me to get it off of my plate and get them into whatever I want them to do for a particular case, or if we have a trial coming up. Um, and then if it's it's a s if it's a school uh day, then I always take my eight-year-old to school. You know, we load up the dogs in the truck, I take them to school, we we do it every day. I love it. It's my it's my highlight. And then just like you, I exercise religiously. I'll I'll come home and spend about two hours really working hard to be sure that you know we all know that father time chases us hard, so I want to stay a little ahead of that. So I treat that as part of a job, like a deposition or a trial. I will not not exercise. And and I make myself do that because I know that exercise, diet, and sleep are the key to my mind being clear. Uh, and so I prioritize it and I have to every single day. Um, and then uh I'll go back to work at the end of the exercise in the uh ice cold, cold dip, which gets me back into my work mental mentality, uh, until it's time to pick up the kids from school. And I will be there when he walks out, and then there's some sort of family event, either uh my daughter's ballet or my son's baseball game, or you know, we'll sit in the kitchen when my wife cooks dinner, which she does every night for the entire family, and the grandkids will come over. So we it's a blend, uh, and that's a general outline. If I'm in trial, nobody knows anything about uh anyone that knows anything about me knows that that's it. Like in trial that the one I told you about, I was in the war room every morning at 1 a.m. with my legal assistant and my lawyers getting ready for a full day of trial. We do a full day of trial. I go home, prepare a witness briefly, but then I go get four hours of sleep, and then I'm back in the war room. And it's it's all encompassing. But that's you know, that's the only way I can be. I'm not making myself do it. That's all I think about. It's all I want to do. I'm I'm I am in it, and it takes a week and a half to two weeks to get out of that process once the trial's over. And I have to be in trial two weeks before the jury selection in the war room every day because I, you know, I want my story to be, you know, my story. So I have to really work hard on, you know, making sure brevity is power and that I don't spend, you know, three hours in an opening statement, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Well, I told you that uh we're gonna finish around now. We've gone over time because if I had my druthers and if I didn't have court today, I'd I'd spend uh days and days uh talking abubba and barely even getting any sleep. You have heard from an amazing man. Uh those of you who know me know me better now by m knowing my good friend uh Bob Hilliard. I am not exaggerating.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beatheprosecution.com by calling our office at seven zero three three eight three one one zero zero or texting us at five seven one four zero six seven two six eight.