SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beat the Prosecution, presented by Northern Virginia criminal defense and DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz, where we are here to regularly present you information and ideas for beating your prosecution as best as possible. Nothing on any of our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or for individuals who have paid for a consultation. And now for your host, John Katz.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hello, everybody. This is John Katz at Beat the Prosecution. I am a criminal defense and DWI defense lawyer in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I am having a lot of trouble containing my excitement over our guest today. She will correct me if I uh mispronounce her name, which she just reminded me of, Kamali Rafalovich, who is over in Hawaii, six hours behind us. This is the first time I'm meeting her uh on Zoom. Uh we spoke uh last week by phone, uh, and she uh knew knows well the late Kahalia Kala Hugh Lin, an important teacher of mine, and Mourna Simeona, their uh joint teacher. And what's important for me, especially about KR, people call her KR, is that she is a teacher and practitioner of self-identity through Hopono Pono. Well, how does that relate to beating the prosecution? I'm going to tell you. A huge part of winning in any kind of uh fight or battle or uh seeking to battle uh to uh harmonize and imbalance situation is coming to the power of zero. And hopono pono is heavily, if not all, about getting to zero, about erasing our internal gunk. That is what meditation is about. That is what Tai Chichuan uh practice is about. The man who was one of the greatest teachers of my martial art, uh, Tai Chichuan Benjamin Lowe would say, you have to always be at zero as a fighter. If I try to uh beat a person's 150 pounds with 151 pounds, I'm gonna keep on pushing and pushing to higher limits because then I'll have the 500-pounder as well, without going on and on. KR, please introduce yourself to the audience.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Hi, everybody. Thank you so much. I am in here in Hawaii and um very grateful to meet John. He seemed very interesting, man. Thank you, John. And your wife, Joy, thank you both very much.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Oh, my wife is gonna be ecstatic that you mentioned her name. Thank you so much. Well, an irony about interviewing you is that I did meet Ahaliakala Hulin, who uh is a late uh practitioner and uh teacher of uh Opono Pono. I'm gonna ask you to uh in a moment uh tell to tell us what that is. Uh I met him twice uh in 2011. Uh I brought my son uh after uh the Dalai Lama uh spoke at American University. I brought him to pick up my wife after she finished uh a day of uh of a workshop with the Haliakala Hugh Len. And the first thing he said to me was lawyer, and he hugged me and we hit it right off. And um then when I went to uh a seminar with him, with my wife and son, who at that time was only around six years old, about a year later, uh he said, Okay, if you have any questions, ask questions. But if you have a question, you're not at zero. So I said, I'm gonna answer my question anyway. And he didn't even answer it. I I asked him, Well, if there is an afterlife, what do you do if you get bored? And he actually joked to me about it later on about that one. And here I am asking you questions, meaning I'm not at zero. So, KR, please tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get to uh self-identity through who ponopono? What is that? And uh to ask a bunch of questions without a question. One of my burning questions is uh something in your bio about how someone came up to you, I think it was on the beach and said, There's someone you want to meet.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago. Yeah, that's how I first met Morton was um somebody just said to me, they looked at me and said, You you need to meet this woman. And I took one look at her, one look, I didn't know what she did. I was very young, 19. One look at her, and I said, Oh. It was like, oh, oh, I have to know what she knows. That sounds arrogant, but I have to know, I didn't know anything about her. I have to know this one look, so that's good. You know, it doesn't matter how we all get there, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

This interesting story is and what is self-identity through hope pono pono?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Sorry, there's a chainsaw going off if you can't help, but I got my window shut. But um, yeah, self-identity through hope on the pono is a process that Mourna developed after years of her own personal meditation, um, a process that everybody could use. It's updated from the traditional Hawaiian method, but she also learned of hope on. And it's a problem solving to cause to make right. So the main thing about hope on two main things. One is your self-identity, who you are, conscious, subconscious, superconscious mind together, and then the process itself. So the role of the conscious part of us is to learn it, to educate our subconscious mind, and then to initiate it. Then the subconscious gathers the memory, it holds the memories and gathers the memories that contribute to our experiences, judgments, reactions. Right? Most of what happens in our subconscious, as we all know and experience, we don't know what's going on. You feel tired one day, you feel angry one day, you like something, you oh, I can't watch that kind of movie, all that kind of stuff, right? Even just sitting there in your in your house thinking, where am I in my life? Well, that's where you can apply yourself identity, hope and upon petition to cause to make right. It's not that instantly you're gonna get a result or instantly you're gonna know something, but every time you do this hope and upon it, you're different. You literally can change your pathway. I've seen it many, many times.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Well, it it works uh for me heavily about this idea about getting back to zero, not having excess data inside. I'm gonna ask you at some point, we should just erase all the data and taking personal responsibility. So every time, well, uh, how do I say this without revealing what the judge was? Okay, I know. There's a judge, and uh his last name rhymes with a rather uh crude uh human function. I won't say what that is, both because I don't want to uh get the negative energy out there, and I don't want him to know who he is. But let's just say uh I was leaving the courthouse, this is around 15 years ago, and I said the name to uh uh to a colleague, and I said, that judge so and so, and I gave the nasty name, did this and that. And then I caught myself and I said, Oh, I'm sorry. I had to take I take personal responsibility about what I did in that situation that may have set him off, and what I did in that situation not to have uh uh done better to have diffused the situation. And uh it just makes life so much easier for me and everyone around me, instead of giving the finger to someone who seems to be tailgating me and instead to bless them, and at worst, maybe to uh just do a gentle motion uh with my hand for them to please create some distance. And um and of course, when uh when I'm at zero, when I remove all the uh internal gunk, it's like I haven't put that uh pebble in the ocean that's gonna reverberate in a negative way. So uh, and it helps my clients tremendously. Um, and and it's just amazing how uh I might have a judge who's ready to uh yell at me. And if I'm at zero, he has nothing to put, he or she has nothing to push against the same with the cop, with the prosecutor, anyone else. Uh they they don't feel threatened by me. Well, they need to have the threat uh some way that if they don't give me what I want, then they're gonna have to deal with me through a trial, for instance. But they don't feel threatened uh by me in terms of not uh of thinking that I'm gonna go ahead and stab them in the back. That way I can talk to these folks, to the judge, to the prosecutor, to the cop, to the opposing witness, uh, without them worrying that I'm gonna do something underhanded while I'm talking to them. It makes them makes it easier for them to trust me. Well, let me get to a client without revealing him at all. Uh he, I had a client, he emailed me just uh an hour before we were supposed to have court, and he said, Um, I'm gonna go forward by myself. I don't want you. Uh, you're not helping me at all. And this was a man who was speaking very delusionally beforehand, but I felt it was manageable because it really didn't seem to interfere with the uh with with the defense itself. So I just responded to him. I said, Look, you do what you want, I like you a lot. We had a case before that I did a great job for you on. Uh, just hold open the possibilities here. And when I saw him in court, I had no anger for him. I was trying to take personal responsibility uh for it myself. He was just transformed. He let me take over. I got the case dismissed, and they want to even have breakfast with me. We had a wonderful breakfast, 15 minutes away. And not only did we have a wonderful breakfast, but he chose a location that was only 10 minutes away from a friend's cool uh bulk uh uh bulk uh products, bulk food products store. So I had a great breakfast with him, and then I had a great time visiting with my friend at her store. So that's just an example, uh, just one example how that just works so well for me. So now I ask you, uh, do people have to go to uh a Sith class to learn what the process is, or is it okay for them to know what the process is of cleaning uh during the show?

SPEAKER_02 10:26

You know, you had a lot of really good discussion, really good points in your discussion. It's about you, your experience as you go through life. You're it's not like people always get confused. They say, oh, I made this happen to my client, or I made no, but you're always bringing it back to yourself. That's one of the big things. So, no, you don't have to take the class. We have a lot of um, we share openly a lot of information in on the website. Um, one of the ways you can do it is you mentally image synchrose ice blue. Ice blue meaning that whatever it means at the physical level, you can see it like in glaciers, but you can mentally image synchrose ice blue and see it go over into and through you, top of the head to the bottom of the feet. And then you ice blue always yourself first. Whoops, and then others. So your examples you would do yourself first, always always good. You don't have to, but always good to do yourself, your family, and your home, right? Take care of first your family, then your work.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Isn't that almost akin to when you're on the uh plane that you're told uh put on your own air mask or oxygen mask before you put the oxygen mask on your child?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Well, but then it even goes one step further. You're gonna put that ice blue on yourself, your child, the whole plane. Everybody involved, the other planes in the air. You can ice blue your travel. One of the wonderful to ice blue your travel.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

The whole plane. Like I used to be when I would fly, I was a little bit nervous, and and I would think, oh, what's the pilots doing? And I really would focus on the pilots. Now I'm doing my cleaning. I more I pat the airplane. How are you today? So I have an interesting situation.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

It's the airplane, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:13

It's an airplane. So I get on the airplane, you know, Hawaii fly it, you have to fly back and forth. So I got on the airplane, I patted it, and and I said, How are you today? And I hear the plane vividly say, Oh, I've got a little bit of a cough. And I went, Okay. And I know, you know, you get trying to get in the seat and all that, and I'm in there trying to, you know, and all of a sudden, the middle of the flight, the plane goes like it stopped, dropped 10 feet. And I went, oh my, I started sweating. I heard the plane say, Well, I told you I had a cop. And I went, oh my God. This stuff is real. I'm sweating. I just was it was shocking to me. So yes, these things are real. So another thing, too, it's not just animate or I mean, like our humans that do it, planes have identity, if you will. Marriage, your marriage has an identity. It's a person, if you will. You know, you could create an LLC, it's a person.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Well, this table. When my kids were little, they'd bump the table and they go, Oh, mommy, I says, Oh, how are you? Oh, and the table, is the table hurt? They'd go, What? Well, the table needs ice blue. And yeah, you okay? The table, they go, Oh, you okay, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Well, at this stage, some of the prosecutors and my other colleagues listening might be saying, Has John gone off his rum?

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yes, hopefully so.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Who talks about talks about inanimate objects as having energy? Well, all I can say is this works for me, and that's what's important. And so many of my clients are going through uh personal pain, personal turmoil, uh anxiety, depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, suicidal thoughts, whether these things uh help contribute to their uh their their debacle with their cases, whether they're innocent or not, or whether it resulted from that. Uh so to what extent can Hopono Pono help my clients who are going through all that turmoil?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, so again, you're the idea with hopono, nothing outside of yourself. So it's always you bring it back, you start with yourself first, you clean your thoughts, your judgments, your job role, whatever it is. And then you can apply the um cleaning, like if you're doing ice blue, you would ice blue them, their situation concerns. You know, it really we're always in the middle of a movie. You never go in the middle of the movie and somebody's punching somebody, you think, oh, that's a bad person that punches that person, but you don't know what the other person did. And then then the story that grandmother did. I mean, so we're always in the middle of the movie. We don't know who we are to each other. You don't know. You can marry somebody, you don't know. Most people are what murdered by people they know, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yes. Well, so when I do things right before I meet with uh before I meet with a potential client, I am doing the cleaning before they walk into my office. And if I'm doing it really right, I'm doing the cleaning once I know who they are. I'm doing the cleaning while I'm talking to them on the phone, setting the appointment. If I'm uh doing one of my rare answering the phone when I'm usually let my staff do that. But how about if a if a client says to me, you know, John, I heard you speaking to KR. Uh, what can you teach me about this? Uh, is that the point where I just say, hey, you know, leave it to the pros, just go to the sit people. I I really can only tell you a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Well, that's exactly the question. What can we well?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Let's say a client has heard our podcast from today, and they say, Okay, so I want to learn about uh uh self-identity through Pono Pono. What can you teach me? Is it wise for me to say, hey, go to the pros, go to KR and and uh and the people she's uh she and her organization are approved for teaching. Don't don't go asking me, I'll just clean for you from my end.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Probably better. You know, you could have like approved, like a lot of people are writing things and blogs and all that, and well-meaning, but they're not authorized teachers. One of the things that is my main job here is to make sure that this is taught and written, and the teachers do it exactly the way it was meant. There's no interpretations or changing of it, so that you get this real, like uh I call it like a little uh toolbox. You get the toolbox, right? And then so it's good to to direct them to the self-identity of hope buonapono, not just hope buonapono. Hope one could be anybody saying it's it's a Hawaiian word, and selfishly books and stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Selfishly for me, that's good, because then I can tell them, well, no, I you know, KR told me to send to send it to her organization. I'm not teaching you, but related to that, is it okay for me to say the phrase to start uh about thank you, I love you, sorry, please forgive me, and for us to talk about that to the audience.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah, you're sharing about that too. Yeah, people often openly share, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And my understanding is saying, thank you, I love you, sorry, please forgive me, is us speaking to our subconscious, to our unipili, uh saying, uh, thank you, uh subconscious, the our child subconscious. Uh, I do love you, and I'm I'm sorry for what I've uh brought on to you. And please forgive me for that. And that's part of the cleaning process, am I correct?

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Well, you're see, here's where it's kind of a kind of no, not correct. So we're we have our identity, three selves. The con the subconscious part of you holds memories from the moment of creation to the present. That's that little voice that says, Oh, I knew uh you were on the phone before we had, you know, when you can see now who's on the phone caller ID. Oh, I knew I felt, oh, I knew I didn't like that person. I felt so bad I got out of there, and then there was a car accident. That's your subconscious. So we, as the three selves, as an identity, are doing the petition to cause to make right. And each has a role. The subconscious has a role of gathering the memories and moving them to the almakur, the spiritual part of us, who refines it even further. So while we can say to ourselves, I'm sorry, let to make it even simpler, you're just as an identity doing this petition to cause to make right. You don't have to, when you say I love you, you don't have to say it to your unique, you're saying it as a tool. You bring out the hammer, that's a hammer. And the next one's a screwdriver drinking like solar water or something. Because it gets really confusing that it's not, you're the identity together. You are your subconscious. That's you, that's the emotional part of you. And you pay attention to that. If you're fearful about something or worried about something, angry, regretful, that's where you pay attention. That's where you're responsible for your own experience of something. See, you're taking it with your clients, perfect. You had the experience, they said that, you cleaned. And it's a petition. It doesn't mean that when you say zero, I think sometimes it's, you know, I've been doing consultation for so many years, but zero often means, well, it's all gone, so what do I do now? No, in that moment you have done the petition through universal consciousness. How does it get to be zero for you at that time? Yes, you have you have memories, it's this instant in this moment, instant moment, instant moment. You're not over and done, are you?

SPEAKER_01 19:54

No, maybe this is a good time for me to pause and make sure that people know uh what the website is for uh Sithho Pono Pono. If you want to say that.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

I think I yeah, I z I L C that's real easy to find the letters I z I, then L L C you can find it.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

And uh what does I z I stand for?

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Well it's a mix of things. I just use it like that. Of itself, it's like I like it just like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

It doesn't stand for infinite zeros something.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Maybe that's a function of it, but I don't want to get caught up in that. People get all caught up in these things. This was it's so nice. I said, What is it? Well, I want it to be no because that's not our conscious mind can really limit us in so many ways. Let me do it this way. Let me be smart about it. This is not a smart process.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Okay, then I think I asked uh Dr. Hugh Lin when I last saw him, and uh once again, uh no offense to you, K, because I've just met you, but I just think the world of Hugh Lin and the way he responded immediately, it was it was just amazing, as if maybe we knew each other in past lives for all I know. And I think I said to him, Well, when you're saying that we need to clean the data, are you even talking about uh cleaning the data uh when we're learning a foreign language? Is that an irony? And I mean, I need to speak Spanish with a bunch of my clients, but in doing that, I've got a lot of new data beyond the English that I learned as a child. How do I reconcile? Yes, I need to be able to speak uh Spanish to my clients, but that is data.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, so you get to clean with that, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

So I get to clean the that that I you get to clean with your experience.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

You're having an experience. You always bring if you say if you always bring it back to I have an experience of difficulty with that's where you start the cleaning.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Okay, now this thing about personal responsibility, I hear it. So many times, especially, I think I see it uh through the material in the IZILLC website about thank you for this opportunity to clean and take responsibility. But do we draw the line anywhere? Do to what extent do I have responsibility or some sort of connection to the the uh uh the murder that just took place in uh outside Atlanta two days ago or so? Uh people were killed at the school.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Okay, so that's where you you're taking the step from yourself out there. You never look outside. So you're gonna bring it back to you read about these horrific events like the school shooting. If you jump to the shooting, no, you're you take the you have the opportunity to take responsibility for your own experience, judgment, reaction to events outside. You're not, it's not the outside event. Yes, so that's where you made a leap. So that's you remind yourself I experience within myself. That's your you have the opportunity, you don't have to do anything. We're never saying the people you have to clean, but you have that responsibility, you have the opportunity to do it, but keep it into your experience. If you work with that, you'll get there. Otherwise, you're looking out there. My client, no, uh uh, it's your experience, the client. Ah, catch it, catch it. I do it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Now, what do you think about this? I really do like this idea about if you have a quest, you're not a zero, so therefore I'm not a zero, because I ask questions all the time. But sometimes people might think you're not caring about them or interested in them if you don't ask a lot of questions. And I find that I feel so much more fulfilled when I'm not asking a battery of questions to people, such as, how's your wife? How's the kids? How's the dog? What brand of dog food is talking? And instead, I just like to be with the person, with my friend, with my loved one on a soul level and to have comfortable silences. But to them, you know, I I had someone say to me, you know, if you're not asking uh your staff, you know, uh things about their personal life, how's their weekend or whatever, what did you do over the weekend? They may think you don't care about them. Now that's an interesting one because I especially believe in asking my staff very little but about their personal lives, so they know that that they don't have a boss who prize. Uh, but what I what I'd like to hear from you then is um what do you think about that concept of bringing the uh bring this idea of fewer questions, of not know questions, even into our personal relationships. And how do I reconcile that with if you have a question, you're not a zero, that when I'm in court, I have to ask questions. I have to ask direct exam questions of the defense witnesses and my client, I have to ask cross-examination questions of the opposing witnesses.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Okay, so I think it's this is a good example of this, just like you were looking outside at somebody else. That was an isolated time with Dr. Human. So in that time, you you that did something to you. But in our whole point of class, we do not say that. So now your intellect has grabbed onto it, and this is a function of the actual no, it's not. See, so what is important to do under any circumstance is again the opportunity to apply yourself identity or whole point opponent to the experience of the question. Not to get the answer, but like I'm sitting here and I go, what do I do today? I have so many projects. What do I do? If I cling with that question within myself, oh, I'm gonna go do the text, I'm gonna review taxes, or I'm gonna do something like that. So you're making that be a function of hope and point. We don't teach that. You locked on to that intellect, so now you can say, Well, she's saying this, I'm not, and you're still gonna cling with that. But it's it's isolated event there that was more personal for you than how it's taught. See, the intellect tries to control it. We're either dominated by it, subconscious, overwhelmed with emotions, dominated by it. I hate that, I hate that, I hate this, or I know this, I know this, I know this. Yeah. And you don't.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Okay. Um now, uh, I think you said it's public information, but I'll try to dance to this carefully to see if it's okay. Uh is is it okay for me to ask you what you know about how Dr. Hugh Lin first approached Hopono Pono? Because that might help the audience. First, some of those are wondering, is John Kasma Shugana, which I think everyone knows what that means, crazy and Yiddish, but he's even interested in this. And uh it seems like uh Dr. Hugh Lin didn't didn't uh come into it right away either.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Oh, yeah. I think you know, he's he was very charismatic and just just a very interesting person, right? So I worked with him, I was there in the very beginning for many years, and he shows up and he he you know he was he was educated. The story to me is the man, not his experience. But he's educated, grew up in a tough neighborhood, learned his, got his PhD, learned and practiced it, and fearlessly practiced it with these, you know, um criminally insane people. He goes into Mourna's class, self-ident through hope on the porno, pays his money, sits down and goes, This is nuts. She's talking about identities of tables and this and this. I see a Chinese man over there, gets up, politely leaves. A few weeks later, comes back, pays again money, just okay. I'm putting my money down, sits down, same thing. She's saying something, I can't understand this, gets up politely, leaves. Third time he comes back, puts his money down again, sits down and goes, huh, stayed through the class and then stayed. Because it was that that he as a person turned 180 degrees from what he learned and taught and developed himself into to be able to change it, that's the story. His result of the people getting better and playing tennis with these people, these murderers out and up, you know, was just what he did. If he had a plumber, a plumber could have the same experience with Hope Ponapono, different example. So I think what's a disservice in a way to Jopuanapono and our classes, that if I did Hope Ponapono, did it correctly and it worked, I would get the same result that Dr. Yulang got. No. That you're missing the whole story. Right. You and your life have the opportunity to turn 180 degrees with how you work with your family, your husband, your own business, your own pathway in life. It's not the results. So I think that's the downside of that story.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

What I think is particularly interesting about you is my understanding is that uh while it's a big part of your life to be uh teaching hopono pono, you also have a real estate business. I understand that you um you you do uh consultation for a hire with people and even cleaning from afar with I don't know uh if you have any limits to it, I guess businesses and real estate or whatever. Could you uh tell the audience a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Yeah, so again, I was at the beginning with Mourna before there was anything, and we would meditate. So for whatever reason, you come into some people are excellent singers, right? Hit the tone every time. Well, my job to meditate. So um I learned these things from her, worked very closely for years and years, and then um have kept up with it because it's purposeful to do. I don't go out there, I'm not saying I should or shouldn't, but people just find me old like that. And then um, so I do that, I have that business I've done for many years, and then the same thing with a house. I wanted to buy a house. A friend of mine says, Oh, you can never buy a house because you don't have a real job. And I went, Oh my God. Okay, so I went to school, went to real estate class, got my license, signed up, looked for myself, found it in the book, and then people started asking me. And I said, Well, I'll tell you how to do it. Says, Well, can't you help me? And I thought, hmm, okay, well, now I'm doing real estate, okay, but it's about the whole point of my practice of self-identity, hopefully with the people, with the land that I'm working with. And I'm cleaning with the land. Really, my client is the land at that spiritual level.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Your client is the land, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

In the real, in the real, in the fullness of existence, I'm a real estate broker, having people come in and out. In my mind, I'm very much taking that land and being responsible spiritually to that land, right? Then you do the physical part of working with a client and all, right? And you have the responsibility, fiduciary, responsibility, all that, that's at a different level. But there is a responsibility for me to apply my whole point of one to any land I'm gonna work with, show or anything. Otherwise, what am I doing it for?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

So if a person attends the uh Sith classes and really uh uh learns it and applies it well, are they gonna need the individual counseling? Who who benefits uh from and needs that individual uh one-on-one counseling with you and and other people from uh self-identity through hopono ponum?

SPEAKER_02 31:52

It's so I think one of the things that happens is you you're doing your hope on opponent, right? And here is a service that was given to me. Mourna, we developed it over many years, and she said what you do is very unique and people will come when they need it. So it's more the idea that you did hope on, but you're doing your clean, and that is your inspiration to do this. Because whatever I bring to the table, they're saying I want it, not need it like I can't do without you, but oh now I'm having this.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yes, yeah, different. Now that brings up inspiration and abundance. My understanding is that when we uh want to do hope and apply it, that does help us with abundance and inspiration. Am I correct about this?

SPEAKER_02 32:39

But that's looking for a result.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

So when you when you're the petition of hope and the result is it's correct for all involved. Right? Everybody involved gets put into this, the desk, the table, everything is involved. So if it's right for you, what's right for you comes.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

And then that's where you have to, well, you don't have to do anything, but that's where you have the opportunity to clean with what you think you like to do. But if you don't like to do something, you can apply your whole point of point. Again, you're always looking at yourself.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

So if you're looking at yourself, then okay, uh, the abundance of this comes, but we're not can't say you clean, and if it if I did it correctly and it worked, I would get this result. But we include that sources of income, monies.

unknown 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Well, so interesting that you talked about dwelling on the result because uh what a summer this has been when I've attended uh Tai Chi Chuan uh Yang Style uh short form um push hands sparring practice this last summer. And I had to uh come back to doing that after not wanting to touch people much after COVID started. And I did a podcast with my teacher, um Julian Chu, who's one of the best living Tai Chi teachers there is in the world, just happened to have been local. And when I said to him after our program, I said, Julian, I've been away from the push hands for a few years. I've been concerned about having that physical contact because of COVID. He said to me, Invest in loss, which is a big part of Tai Chi. Now that relates to then I returned to these practices several times over the summer. I can't tell you how how exponentially I improved with the push hands. But then one of the best practitioners was practicing with me. And uh he showed me how with his arms all almost like jelly soft, that uh he still was able to push me off him just with his shoulders, with my hand on his shoulders or with his hands on my shoulder. And at one point he said to me, I'm gonna tell you why you're not doing better. And I think you know where this is going. Because then you're trying, you're thinking you want to win. The more you're thinking of the results, the more you're not gonna get the results. It reminds me of the saying about uh samurai, uh samurai fighters. The more the samurai fighters think about his next step or her next step, the more likely they're gonna get their head lopped off because they're not in the present. They're not in the present. And wow. Uh, I knew I was gonna get benefits from this interview, but the benefits I'm getting so far are just so exponentially higher than I ever realized. But I wasn't trying to, I wasn't supposed to seek the benefits. Yeah, I'm getting I'm getting the benefits.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Yeah, Murney used to talk talk about being in the flow, right? You're in the flow. People say, Oh, I have to clean all the time. No, you're in the flow. You don't think about it. You're like you say, you're moving without.

unknown 35:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Well, part of this flow, I want to talk about tough as nails people, because it's been pointed out to me by myself and others that some of my greatest teachers and friends are tough as nails. Some of them are just approached being bad asses in a good way. For instance, my uh peace teacher, Junya Suda, behind me, you'll see uh that's the the Odaimoku, Nama Mio Horenge Kyo, which she chanced the Lotus Sutra. She she's tough as nails, she's crisscrossed the country doing peace walks, including the uh longest walk with the American Indian Movement. And and I I had a uh a friend of mine, the late uh uh Trudy Morse, who would uh go across the country following uh Cecil Taylor and some of the other greats and get their bands together. I mean, I look for these tough as nails people because that's what I like to be. I mean, I've been described by uh uh one of my fellow uh group members at the National Criminal Defense College's uh trial practice institute as having a thick skin and an open heart. Now, this brings me to what you might be willing to share about Mourna Simeona, your teacher, about the following, for instance. Was she considered by uh some of the more traditional Hoponopono practitioners to be a heretic, a radical? And was she sometimes pretty much tough as nails or pretty tough in her own words? Because uh I've heard that maybe she was pretty firm in her own words sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Oh, yeah. No, she was definitely her own woman, yeah. Um, English was her second language, yeah. So, and she was also, she shared with me that she was very frightened of talking with people, you know, at some point in her life, just couldn't, and then she said I worked on myself, you know. So she she developed this process very different of the traditional hope on opponent, that it's just within yourself, the war is within you, the imbalance is within you, not the other person. So that's really the main part of everything she did was was developing that. That's why there's two main parts to the whole point, this identity itself. I mean, I'm in business, I do this all day. Tenant doesn't pay the rent, they didn't pay the rent. I gotta call the attorney and do this, right? And do these things, and yet I'm have to look at myself. What negative memories do I hold to contribute to this experience I'm having of X, Y, and Z. And it is amazing sometimes that the stories that I've had. I had one really rough eviction, the lady wouldn't move and come out, and the sheriff was there, and and he says, Oh wow, we're done, you know, we're working really, you know, it wasn't violent, but she wasn't gonna go. She walks out and gives me a hug. Oh my god. She starts crying, you're my best friend, Kamile. I know it's time to leave. And this and the sheriff says, I've never seen something like this. I says, I know. It's just, I know. And it was hugging and tears, and then she left. So that's again, you do what you have to do. See, you're an attorney, you have to do this, right? This is your job. How do you feel? I love doing it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Well, you're tough as nails, too. It can involve the evictions. And and my friend Trudy Morris, she she had rental property. So I said to her, Trudy, did you even do the eviction? She said, Of course. We did what we had to do. She said, Her husband who worked during the day was this brilliant man, brilliant man working in the uh uh with I don't know, standards in the commerce department or whatever, the department of standards. At nighttime, you'd go and fix up some of the you know the houses and they go traveling the world.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah, it's a funny thing. You can apply self-identity hope and it's just a toolbox, there's nothing else.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

But because I want justice so much for my clients, and I really want to harmonize the disharmonious situations for them, sometimes the people around me, not as much my clients, because they know how much I care about them, but sometimes people around me think that I'm a little more uh heartless, or maybe that's exaggerated, or not as caring as they think I should be. And my response is look, I'm an adopt, I'm an adopted New Yorker. I grew up in Fairfield, Connecticut, not far from them. What you see is what you get. If I don't like you, I'll tell you I don't like you. So if I don't tell you I don't like you, I like you. So if I seem to be scowling at you and uh and I don't tell you I don't like it, maybe I just had too much beans last night, it's just gas. But but getting back to to the work I do, um, yeah. Um if uh uh if if my client starts uh saying things they're not supposed to say, and I tell them, you know, say as little as possible in the courthouse, unless we're in a conference room because the walls and all is out of ears. If I catch my client starting to say things they're not supposed to be saying that can really hurt them, I say, look, you really got to tone it down. Let's go to the conference room right now. Um so I where where's that going? It's this tough as nails thing that needs to be uh balanced with yes, I do I do like that reference to a thick skin and an open heart. And I I do my best, and I think I'm successful in letting my clients know, my staff know, the defense uh witnesses we work with, the consultants we work with, that my motives are pure. And if ever I rub you the wrong way, if if you're on my side, uh that wasn't intended. Now it's interesting with with the prosecutors, for instance, with the cops, it helps me so much to take to heart what Larry Posner said, who was uh a guest of ours a few weeks ago on the podcast. He's one of the greatest teachers and practitioners of cross-examination. And I was using this word opponents, dealing with this with the opponents, that with the opponents. And Larry said, I don't view the prosecutors as my opponent. My opponent is dealing with the jury, with the judge, make making sure they're not my opponent, making sure that I can convince them. And I tell my clients so often that it is a sideshow, it's a sideshow to treat the uh the cops as our enemy, the prosecutors as our enemy. I say, uh, if the prosecutor is seeming to come across as a jerk, is a not nice person, is a heartless person today, that still doesn't remove that they have Buddhahood or however I can uh bring it to them. They they have some sort of good nature in them. Now we can take it to the extreme. I I asked my uh teacher Jun Yasuda, I said, okay, Jun-son, I said, What would you have done if you uh lived in Hitler's time and had met him? I know that you wouldn't have done what I would have done, which would have to shoot him dead first and ask questions later. And her response was, she said, Johnson, she said, everyone has multiple aspects of their personality. She said, as evil as the things that Hitler did were uh he was an artist, that that's a positive. I would have asked him, she said, I would have asked him, Why are you so angry? Uh, you know, maybe he needed a massage. Now I I I I laughed to myself about that, especially since she wasn't white. So if she met Hitler, he may have said it right to the gallows. Um but am I correct? And I think I am, that Hopono Pono is there to work for everyone, not just the toughest nails people, but also the people who aren't tough as nails, because like you said, this is for everyone to work on themselves in the place where they are.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah. And I guess it's about you with yourself in your life.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

You with yourself in your life. How do you be your best husband and family member and It's you with yourself. You're the one sitting there at the dinner table having an argument with somebody you didn't want to start. You're the one that's happy and sad. And it's you with yourself in your life. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

And it reminds me of uh what a friend told me about over 20 years ago. He probably didn't even know at the time what Hopono Pono is. He perhaps does not still know. He was working with the uh as a lawyer with the Federal Elections Commission and he was dealing with someone who was really angry. I guess he was someone being investigated. And uh my friend who was the lawyer with the with the FEC, he went back to his hotel room. And I guess the next morning, by inspiration alone, he started just giving blessings to himself for this man who was so angry the day before. And sure enough, when my friend met up with this man that that morning, the man who was going on a tirade the day before, he was just fine, just like like that person you evicted and uh and came out and hugged you.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

It's a funny thing, isn't it? Uh yes, and it's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

It makes life so much more simple when we're not leaving our home in the day and wondering who's who who's gonna try to uh uh who's gonna try to swindle us next, who's gonna try to tresp against us next. We just look within ourselves how we can clean ourselves and how we can improve ourselves and how we can deal with ourselves. And I think that's one of the reasons why I am a criminal defense lawyer, because I'm not the one accusing. I'm not the one who's getting up there, you know, saying your guy's a bad guy, which a prosecutor said just three weeks ago, or uh, or or your guy's no good, what a cop said a few years ago, you know, even calling it that. There was a cop who said to me many years ago, he said, You're gonna believe that over me. I said, You mean my client, Mr. Jones? Yes, Mr. Jones is not a that. Mr. Jones is a human being.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

You know, I think another important part of this self-identity hope one. We talk about working with our problems and situations that we know about, right? But if you're if you're willing to do your cleaning or you know, do your introspection with nothing in mind when you're comfortable, when you're sitting somewhere having in the garden or whatever you like to do, fascinating. Because it we it's teaching ourselves that it's not about expectation of a problem solving that you don't like, but acknowledging I have imbalance within me that I'm not aware of. Yes, and that's a valuable tool. That's precious, that is time well spent. Now I was you with yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Yes, I was mentioning to you last week about how I saw the possibility and the process for me of my criminal defense work actually being a healing art. And your response was wonderful, which was well, any profession can actually approach their work or profession as a healing art.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

But you're already doing it. When those people, one self-identity whole pony petition, one time it's a in a sense, healing art. You want to use that word healing, but it's a balance, right? Bringing up balance. You know, it is. You do your clean, you're different out there.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

All right. So let's say someone goes to uh to a hoponopono class. I don't know whether they're for two days or one day, usually now. Two days, yeah. Two days, and then they emerge into the regular world. And uh I mean, I I assume that's akin to when Jerry Spence uh said to us when we finished the the four-week trial or his college from the entire month of August of 1995, and he said to us, Okay, you've been in this bubble of safety with people who have all experienced the same thing and all agree to it, agree with it. Now the real challenge is get going out in the outside world and not reverting to who you were before you ever step foot here on the ranch. And I think it's it's probably the same thing with Hop Hopono Pono. I get it can it give me a challenge for people. They go to this uh two-day class and then they actually have to apply it. Well, not have to, they're only gonna get benefits by applying it and not reverting to who they were before they started the class.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Well, one of the things remember, you're going in that class, you're not in a safe bubble. Those are your enemies. That teacher is your enemy. I'm a problem. You must aware this. You know, otherwise you wouldn't meet if you weren't together. So you pay attention, you say, Oh, I got I know my ice blue, I'm gonna ice blue myself, that teacher, ice blue that talk about more ice blue. Don't treat it like these guys know what they're doing. I mean, that's at the spiritual level. We're gonna teach you properly and all that, but you have connections with everybody. You think you're going to the best dentist in town because your tooth hurts? Good luck with that. Good luck with that. You experience your tooth? Oh, pun upon up. Oh, should I go to the dentist? Oh, I'm going to the dentist. Oh, should I? Clink, clink, clink, clink. You're otherwise that that dentist ain't digging in your mouth. What do you think he is? Your friend? Are you crazy? That's insanity. You have connections with that dentist. That's what you're there for.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

All right then.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

I'm serious, you guys.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

I know you're serious. But that connects to this, then. Do we know that anyone's our friend, then even ourselves under those circumstances? You shook your head.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

If you live with someone, you can be have the best relationship. If you're still that's your experience, but when you clean yourself, you open not only yourself, but everybody to to they're different, the better. So stop we stop judging. Oh, I'm okay with that. You don't know. You but whoever you judge, react to you can clean. So when we get complacent, okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Now coming back to the trial or as college, uh, I guess it was related to the people who say make I statements rather than you statements. So when when I when I said um one day uh after a few days, uh a week at the trial or as college, I said to uh uh one of the people, one of the other students, I said, I said, you know, I was at the trial practice institute last year, a two-week program. I said it was so well organized. And here we are, where where the uh uh the teachers are are still figuring out what we're doing. That why was I uh cross-examining nurse URIM characters yesterday? Because they didn't have a fact pattern for me. So um one of the teachers, one of the really advanced teachers, said to me, Who heard this? He said, When you say that, John, I make myself feel bad. Now, am I correct that your view of this would be well, I well, I don't know. Well, I'll just put it out there. Uh, does hopono pono look at anything in terms of non-duality or non-attachment? It's just so much simpler. Okay, fine. There's something external going out from here or non-external because I'm experiencing it is all about looking at me. So I should never tell anyone you got to correct yourself, or you know, that's not, you know, that's a big bigoted thing for you to say or whatever, but just work on me, or am I oversimplifying it?

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Well, I think you got a lot of intellectual wrangle up there. So, one of the things that one story that I think would help and a good example. So I was young mother, I went to the beach all the time, you know, sunscreen was coming out. So I was using sunscreen, and my back was really breaking out like painfully, and I went, Oh my, it was like an acne or something. And I went, Oh, it was hard for me. Anyway, I'm at the beach, crowded beach, and this woman taps me on the shoulder and she says, Your back's breaking out. And I go, I know it really hurts. She says, Give me your sunscreen. She's not drawing attention, and she looks and she says, You have there's Pava in this. I think you're reacting to the Pava. Try, throw this away, get something without Pava. I think your back will be better. You're a good lady, you know. Darn if it didn't work. So that's we're open, whatever the result, whether you're talking or not talking, there's never a not, it's just a process, and you get your answers where you will. That saved my life at that time, you know, changed my life. I mean, it was different. It came out of the blue. I'm so grateful that woman had the courage to say that to me. I didn't know her. Right. So when you so the same thing in your life, you don't it whole point of point is only the tool. It that never says, Don't say this, do say this. Yes, you don't do it, do it. That's always where are you in the flow? Yes, yeah, and it's never anything other than get to the cleaning and open to inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Now, I hope it's not too selfish, Shamise, and say, I'm not well, I'll I'll just put out there. I want to know a little more about Mora Simeona. Am I correct that we really don't have much uh uh recorded uh writings by her or audio tapes or videotapes, or am I wrong about that? I've found found that to be few and far between. Uh uh her her own writings and and her own voice.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Um I would say that she was at that time when it was just beginning for recording, right? So there are some, there is a class that she recorded, a three-month class and all that, but she developed the self-ident through hope one for those are exactly her words. I was there, every single sentence in that book that we give out. I was there sitting with her. She calmed me down, come down, meditate two hours on one sentence, right? So every one of those words in there in that 12-step manual is exactly correct for you to on on how you apply the self-identity whole point of point.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Well, I think that's the book I have. That's the one the book with the light blue cover, which I'm not remembering.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

Yeah, yeah. And then there's but yeah, that was before we had all the cell phones and people were videoing everything. There's some of the things about her, some of it was recorded. We have some of it, but it certainly has not to the point of somebody really bringing it all together in a big like a movie thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

But was Mourna a psychic? And do you consider yourself to be a psychic?

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Well, she worked on, oh, she was very um, if you call it psychic. In fact, people from that worked in that field of uh, I guess you'd say psychic, uh beyond mind thing would always find her out, and she's oh, and she'd it'd help, she'd help them settle out whatever they got into, whatever trouble they got into. You know, like a doctor for the doctor, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yes, you consider yourself to be a psychic.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

I more do it like a practitioner. Somebody could say, Oh, well, you're if you're doing that, then you call yourself a psychic. But that don't that doesn't make sense to me because it doesn't do anything. I it's always going to be if I'm doing something or seeing something, hearing something, I'm going to be doing it from the perspective of practicing self-reden.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

What do you want the audience to know that you have not already discussed today?

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Well, I think that this is your life and it's precious. And to and to no matter how you the level you hear or begin to study self-added through whole point, it is a petition to cause to make right in your life, right? How precious is that to be your best mother? You know, how do you do these things? How do you go out on a date with your husband after you've had five kids together? I don't know. But it's about you in your life for me. I I'm doing so many different things I know I wouldn't be doing if I kept with all my judgment. Now I have a lot to clean, I'm telling you, every day. Man, if I don't I put my own clean cards on my phone so I don't get in that phone and start talking. Oh yeah. It became it's still we jump right in, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Cleaning cards. Is this something I'm supposed to know about or something that's told?

SPEAKER_02 56:33

I have these little cards that I took from inspirational pictures, and they just they're they're the plant saying something. I know it sounds crazy, but it's not. These are these are identities talking to us, yeah. So it's a it's a reminder that we are living in this world of consciousness, right? We're so human-centric, everything's about us. There's other advanced beings all around us, whether it's just people do the stars or plants, or you know. Okay, we're not we're not the top notch here. I think we're a bunch of troublemakers, really.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

And therefore, if inanimate objects have energy and or even personalities, is that true? Well, that means we that that's going out into infinite space and time because if if the universe itself is infinite.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

Well, that's what self-identity through hope one point of the process that we teach is correct throughout all time and space, past, present, future, all identity. Yes, that's the mark you're hitting when you're doing this. That's why it's just this, nothing else. Have a question, doesn't matter. Don't have a question, doesn't matter in this moment the death. Having a question again, outside. Outside, outside, outside.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Well, kr, you we love your questions, John. They're wonderful, and you get to clean with them.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

We I do that. I told you this would be for an hour. I am uh perfect. I I'm trying to delay this being beyond an hour, but I'm gonna keep to it. My gosh, KR, you have blessed me so much. To me, you've blessed the audience so much as well, and uh, and you've blessed everyone who uh comes into connection with the people who have heard today's interview. Uh, so everybody, once again, what does this have to do with beating the prosecution? I already have known for years and years that just like a samurai warrior, the more that I clean out the gunk, the more I clean out the dirt, the more I clean out the uh what doesn't need to be there, uh, the more I am in a pure state of ready to fight and harmonize a disharmonious situation the best for my clients and me. And then it goes beyond that because when I am happy and uh fulfilled and feel harmonious and grounded as a Laura, I am doing better for my clients, for my family, for everyone else. I know there's so much more for me to learn because the learning process doesn't just doesn't stop, does it?

SPEAKER_02 59:15

Fun talking to John anytime. I enjoy it. You did great. You do great sharing this with people. It's wonderful. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Thank you. And as uh one of my Tai Chichuan teachers, David Walsh-Kaufman, says, do not let our teachers forget how much uh we appreciate them. You are one of my newer teachers, but I appreciate you so very deeply, KR. Thank you so much. This has been Beat the Prosecution with John Katz. I am a criminal defense and DWI defense law in Northern Virginia, KR. If you'll just wait a moment after I turn off the recording.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Thank you for listening to this week's episode from Beat the Prosecution. This is a regular podcast giving people a leg up against police investigations and prosecutions. Nothing discussed on our media sources, such as our podcast or website, is legal advice. John Katz only provides legal advice to current clients or to individuals who have paid for a consultation. We welcome you contacting us via email at info at beat the prosecution.com by calling our office at 703 383 1100 or texting us at 571 406 7268.